Wise Parking QE Hospital drop off area night time PCN

cesurman

Today I managed to take a picture of the parking notice where I parked. One from the driver's side of the car. It was put very high from the ground, you should keep a distance from the notice to be able to read, however, it is not possible to read the long text in small font size as you can see from the picture. 
There is also a zoomed-in version to see what it is trying to say.

Fruitcake

The signs are contradictory. One of them says it is a pick up area.
The driver in your case was picking up, not dropping off.
There are no Ts and Cs on the parking sign pertaining to a motorist picking up. Therefore, there was no offer made to the motorist, no consideration because there was nothing being offered, therefore there can have been no acceptance of a contract. Consequently the motorist did not breach the Ts and Cs.

The white sign is unreadable in daylight from a short distance away. possibly only the width of a car, let alone at night. It wouldn't hurt to measure the actual distance if possible, and take a photo without flash at night.

How are you getting on with your complaints to PALS and the head of the hospital trust?

Have you complained to your MP yet?

cesurman

I will go and try to take a picture tomorrow. I won't be able to go there again until the 10th of August.

Complained to the MP and the trust; using the email address given on the charity commission website.
PALS is not back with a response though they aim to respond in two days, it's been 3 days.

@Fruitcake To be precise, what distance would you like to me to measure exactly?

Fruitcake

cesurman said:

I will go and try to take a picture tomorrow. I won't be able to go there again until the 10th of August.

Complained to the MP and the trust; using the email address given on the charity commission website.
PALS is not back with a response though they aim to respond in two days, it's been 3 days.

@Fruitcake To be precise, what distance would you like to me to measure exactly?

Don't make a special trip just to take photos. More important than the distances is the point that the signs with the Ts and Cs only apply to  dropping off, not picking up, so there is no contract with a driver who is picking up, therefore there has been no breach.

As for distance, I would suggest that a sign is inadequate if it can't be read from a car length (roughly 4 - 5m) at the minimum. The sign in the PPC's photo cannot be read at all, certainly not the part about remaining with the vehicle. Their own evidence proves their signs are inadequate.
It's really a question of how close do you have to be at night to be able to read the signs?

Jenni_D

Fruitcake said:

cesurman said:

I will go and try to take a picture tomorrow. I won't be able to go there again until the 10th of August.

Complained to the MP and the trust; using the email address given on the charity commission website.
PALS is not back with a response though they aim to respond in two days, it's been 3 days.

@Fruitcake To be precise, what distance would you like to me to measure exactly?

Don't make a special trip just to take photos. More important than the distances is the point that the signs with the Ts and Cs only apply to picking up, not dropping off, so there is no contract with a driver who is picking up, therefore there has been no breach.

As for distance, I would suggest that a sign is inadequate if it can't be read from a car length (roughly 4 - 5m) at the minimum. The sign in the PPC's photo cannot be read at all, certainly not the part about remaining with the vehicle. Their own evidence proves their signs are inadequate.
It's really a question of how close do you have to be at night to be able to read the signs?

Something's not right there ... if the T&Cs relate to someone picking up* then by definition a contract can only be created with someone who is picking up. Should the two underlined bits be swapped?

* they actually don't - they relate to someone dropping off.

Coupon-mad

Which sign says it is also a pick up area?

cesurman

Coupon-mad said:

Which sign says it is also a pick up area?

The one Wise Parking provided in their "evidential pack". Image taken in the nighttime.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vGr749DhszByQgcM9

Coupon-mad

Ok good, so Frtuitcake makes a good legal point.  There are no t&cs that relate to the conduct of 'picking up' a patient except (arguably) the ten minute maximum intended for that bay.

The two signs are independent. The top sign creates a contract only with drivers who are 'dropping off' (i.e.alighting) a patient and the t&cs state that those drivers have to stay in the car. Now that term is impossible and unfair at A&E, in cases where the patient needs 'assisted alighting' such as a disabled passenger or anyone so injured that they'd need assistance to get into the building. But that's by the by.

Because this driver wasn't 'dropping off' anyone so that term doesn't apply anyway.  This driver was picking up (boarding) passengers from A&E and the only sign about that is the lower blue sign in the evidence pack which creates no contractual terms at all. But it does allow 'picking up' so there is no breach.

In any event, even if an appeal Assessor thinks the top sign somehow applies to people who are not dropping off (yet the wording on that is only about dropping off) the term is unfair and impossible for drivers picking a patient up as that would require vulnerable A&E-discharged patients to stand shivering in the dark and waiting at this random bay near moving traffic and ambulances, rather than sheltering at the A&E doorway.

It is clear that the intention of this being a '10 minute area' is to allow drivers to locate and help patients to or from from the door of A&E. That's what assisted boarding & alighting means.

In any event all that is moot because no consideration period has been allowed.  This breaches the IPC CoP. An observation time of N/A to N/A indicates immediate ticketing and that's not allowed in the code.

There must always be a consideration period. One second would not be sufficient for a driver to read the two different signs in the dark and wrestle with the ambiguity of whether terms applying to people dropping off also apply to people not dropping off.. Due to the doctrine of contra proferentem (in the Consumer Rights Act 2015) any ambiguity in the drafting of terms must be decided in the way which most favours the consumer.  The driver cannot be bound by an ambiguous term nor an unfair one that impacts on the rights and safety of patients who need picking up and have to be located and escorted to the car.

nalin

I think today is the last day  (20.7.2022) to make representation and wonder if this would be of any help -

Following two links may be helpful to you - 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/private-parking-code-of-practice/private-parking-code-of-practice

Fruitcake

Jenni_D said:

Fruitcake said:

cesurman said:

I will go and try to take a picture tomorrow. I won't be able to go there again until the 10th of August.

Complained to the MP and the trust; using the email address given on the charity commission website.
PALS is not back with a response though they aim to respond in two days, it's been 3 days.

@Fruitcake To be precise, what distance would you like to me to measure exactly?

Don't make a special trip just to take photos. More important than the distances is the point that the signs with the Ts and Cs only apply to picking up, not dropping off, so there is no contract with a driver who is picking up, therefore there has been no breach.

As for distance, I would suggest that a sign is inadequate if it can't be read from a car length (roughly 4 - 5m) at the minimum. The sign in the PPC's photo cannot be read at all, certainly not the part about remaining with the vehicle. Their own evidence proves their signs are inadequate.
It's really a question of how close do you have to be at night to be able to read the signs?

Something's not right there ... if the T&Cs relate to someone picking up* then by definition a contract can only be created with someone who is picking up. Should the two underlined bits be swapped?

* they actually don't - they relate to someone dropping off.

Whoops. I'll edit my post now.