EV Discussion thread

JKenH

Two Tesla M3s listed today below £24k and 17 now listed below £27k. Interestingly the total number for sale is still dropping, down to 1557. Could this be because the car dealers are reluctant to buy them at auction?

https://tesla-info.com/inventory/UK/

I think what might be more significant is that Tesla themselves have reduced the prices of the used M3s they have in stock. A couple of weeks ago I recall there weren’t any below £30k but today there is one available at £26,600. This includes a  1 year Tesla warranty. This car was originally listed by Tesla on 2 December at £35k. Tesla currently have 305 used M3s in stock.

Meanwhile WBAC has lifted the valuation on the M3P I was following to £27,405. On 2 Feb this had been £25,135 and on 28 Jan £23,195. The cheapest used M3P listed by Tesla is £36k.

Read into that whatever you like.

Today’s figure from WBAC for my old 20plate 40kWh Leaf at 18k miles is £11,565. On 23 Jan it was £13,585 and in October last year £20,685.

JKenH

I am looking around for what EVs there are locally and came across this 2022 iD4 with around 3k miles for £30,990.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202302134208831

Just as a comparison to the Model Y PCP prices I have been quoting recently this works out at £393.32 per month or £560/month spreading the deposit over the term. Total payable over 3 years £20,159.52. That’s based on 11.75% interest which is higher than what Tesla are offering. OK, it’s not brand new but quite a saving.

Edit: if you want to see the equivalent deal on a new iD4 I have posted it on the Motoring board.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6422644/buying-a-used-ev-today-beware/p6

michaels

Weren't the small battery ID4s 32.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot for a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

JKenH

michaels said:

Weren't the small battery ID4s 2.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot fo a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

Current list price is £38,845 for the smaller battery model. Were you thinking of the iD3?

No, the iD4 isn’t great in winter (the big battery one is similar to the TM3LR) but quite good in summer.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

1961Nick

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Weren't the small battery ID4s 2.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot fo a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

Current list price is £38,845 for the smaller battery model. Were you thinking of the iD3?

No, the iD4 isn’t great in winter (the big battery one is similar to the TM3LR) but quite good in summer.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. My experience of the M3P is 270 miles in summer & 230 miles in winter. I have 2 friends that have the TM3LR & both of them go at least 10% further than mine (all 3 are 21/22 cars with the 82kWh battery). I wonder if those figures are from pre-heat pump vehicles?

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Weren't the small battery ID4s 2.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot fo a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

Current list price is £38,845 for the smaller battery model. Were you thinking of the iD3?

No, the iD4 isn’t great in winter (the big battery one is similar to the TM3LR) but quite good in summer.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. My experience of the M3P is 270 miles in summer & 230 miles in winter. I have 2 friends that have the TM3LR & both of them go at least 10% further than mine (all 3 are 21/22 cars with the 82kWh battery). I wonder if those figures are from pre-heat pump vehicles?

I imagine different people have different ideas about what is winter. Without going back to check, this might have been winter in the US. Winter here can be 7 degrees or -7. There was a lot of discussion on the Tesla UK Owners Facebook group about how bad efficiency was in the cold weather before Xmas. Perhaps it is also affected by battery chemistry, 

Personal experience variations can be down to driving style. I drove to Donington Park on Monday in my Golf and got 67mpg going there (M1) and 65 coming back (A46) and have averaged 63.5 since I last refuelled but I still think for doing comparisons with EVs and other cars the WLTP figure (50mpg in the case of the Golf) is a fair yardstick. 

Edit: the winter testing was in the range 20-30 Fahrenheit, that’s about -8 to -1 Centigrade. There is a big snowdrift in the picture.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Weren't the small battery ID4s 2.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot fo a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

Current list price is £38,845 for the smaller battery model. Were you thinking of the iD3?

No, the iD4 isn’t great in winter (the big battery one is similar to the TM3LR) but quite good in summer.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. My experience of the M3P is 270 miles in summer & 230 miles in winter. I have 2 friends that have the TM3LR & both of them go at least 10% further than mine (all 3 are 21/22 cars with the 82kWh battery). I wonder if those figures are from pre-heat pump vehicles?

I imagine different people have different ideas about what is winter. Without going back to check, this might have been winter in the US. Winter here can be 7 degrees or -7. There was a lot of discussion on the Tesla UK Owners Facebook group about how bad efficiency was in the cold weather before Xmas. Perhaps it is also affected by battery chemistry, 

Personal experience variations can be down to driving style. I drove to Donington Park on Monday in my Golf and got 67mpg going there (M1) and 65 coming back (A46) and have averaged 63.5 since I last refuelled but I still think for doing comparisons with EVs and other cars the WLTP figure (50mpg in the case of the Golf) is a fair yardstick. 

Over 24K miles my consumption has averaged 302Wh/mile. The battery is 82kWh so the average range is 271 miles compared to the 212 miles summer only range in the above chart? That's despite my car being the thirstier performance model.

JKenH

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Weren't the small battery ID4s 2.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot fo a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

Current list price is £38,845 for the smaller battery model. Were you thinking of the iD3?

No, the iD4 isn’t great in winter (the big battery one is similar to the TM3LR) but quite good in summer.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. My experience of the M3P is 270 miles in summer & 230 miles in winter. I have 2 friends that have the TM3LR & both of them go at least 10% further than mine (all 3 are 21/22 cars with the 82kWh battery). I wonder if those figures are from pre-heat pump vehicles?

I imagine different people have different ideas about what is winter. Without going back to check, this might have been winter in the US. Winter here can be 7 degrees or -7. There was a lot of discussion on the Tesla UK Owners Facebook group about how bad efficiency was in the cold weather before Xmas. Perhaps it is also affected by battery chemistry, 

Personal experience variations can be down to driving style. I drove to Donington Park on Monday in my Golf and got 67mpg going there (M1) and 65 coming back (A46) and have averaged 63.5 since I last refuelled but I still think for doing comparisons with EVs and other cars the WLTP figure (50mpg in the case of the Golf) is a fair yardstick. 

Over 24K miles my consumption has averaged 302Wh/mile. The battery is 82kWh so the average range is 271 miles compared to the 212 miles summer only range in the above chart? That's despite my car being the thirstier performance model.

Just one more thought, going back to the winter figures. Is your car garaged overnight? That could make a big difference, if it is -7 out doors and +7 in the garage. Not only are warmer batteries more efficient but you are not wasting energy warming the battery to its optimum temperature.

JKenH

I just checked and WLTP range of the M3P is 340 miles! 

Edit: The data in the test quoted is from fleet averages - real life. It will probably be about 40mpg for a 1.0 Golf on a fleet.

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Weren't the small battery ID4s 2.5k when new (with the 2.5k grant) so this seems a lot fo a 1 year old one?

I have driven the 'big battery' one, couldn't get 220 miles on a charge in cold weather.

Current list price is £38,845 for the smaller battery model. Were you thinking of the iD3?

No, the iD4 isn’t great in winter (the big battery one is similar to the TM3LR) but quite good in summer.

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. My experience of the M3P is 270 miles in summer & 230 miles in winter. I have 2 friends that have the TM3LR & both of them go at least 10% further than mine (all 3 are 21/22 cars with the 82kWh battery). I wonder if those figures are from pre-heat pump vehicles?

I imagine different people have different ideas about what is winter. Without going back to check, this might have been winter in the US. Winter here can be 7 degrees or -7. There was a lot of discussion on the Tesla UK Owners Facebook group about how bad efficiency was in the cold weather before Xmas. Perhaps it is also affected by battery chemistry, 

Personal experience variations can be down to driving style. I drove to Donington Park on Monday in my Golf and got 67mpg going there (M1) and 65 coming back (A46) and have averaged 63.5 since I last refuelled but I still think for doing comparisons with EVs and other cars the WLTP figure (50mpg in the case of the Golf) is a fair yardstick. 

Over 24K miles my consumption has averaged 302Wh/mile. The battery is 82kWh so the average range is 271 miles compared to the 212 miles summer only range in the above chart? That's despite my car being the thirstier performance model.

Yep, we found 250Wh/mile at 70mph was fine, but feels slow. Long term average of the TM3 LR (edit - pre heatpump) dropped after getting the acceleration boost, it's just too addictive, so went up to about 280Wh/mile. Most impressive for me was a run about 18months ago (I think I mentioned it on the BEV thread) when the temp was really high (30C+). No pre-conditioning, so 2 miles in the energy was showing over 600Wh/mile, as we reached the M4. But sticking to 70mph (out of interest) it steadily fell, just reaching 250Wh as we arrived about 35 miles away. Slightly better on return trip, but a couple of hours later, and evening temps had started to fall a bit.

TMY over last 4k miles is ~270Wh/mile. Over nearly a year it's 262Wh/mile, but was creeping towards 250Wh/mile before winter arrived, we pushed the average up at the start with 'playful' driving. 

Probably could do better, but we removed the aero wheels covers when we got it, as the wheels look nice, and run it at about 40psi (cold) rather than 42 to soften the ride slightly.

Very efficient, and certainly suggests to me, that smaller city cars, with smaller batts, should hopefully approach 5m/kWh in the future as efficiency improves, so around 4miles/kWh leaving the power station, after losses. That'll help dent our gross energy consumption, v's oil.