EV Discussion thread

JKenH

Petriix said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

The idea that it's somehow better to keep driving around polluting vehicles to "spread the sunk cost of CO2..." is a logical fallacy. A typical 50kWh EV battery adds 4 tonnes of CO2 to the manufacturing footprint, but saves 1 tonne for every 4000 miles driven. Then the battery (and certainly the metals within) remain useful indefinitely. That's before you even start to talk about the particulates...

I don’t want to get into an argument about how much CO2 it costs to produce batteries (at least, not here and now) but I just wondered if you would expand on the “saves 1 tonne for every 4000 miles driven”. That’s 250g/mile. How is that calculated? 

Thanks

Edit: This article in The Conversation suggests diesel cars emit on average 120g CO2 per km, that’s 192g/mile. (I have assumed diesel because it is pre 2015 diesels that will be affected by the extended ULEZ). 

https://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really-more-polluting-than-petrol-cars-76241

Average grid emissions for the UK last year were 175g/kWh. So for ease of calculation if we take 3.5 miles/kWh consumption for an EV that works out at 50g/mile. 

Using these figures the CO2 saving works out at 142g/mile.

thevilla

silvercar said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

thevilla said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

So? what?  Status quo?

I am within 1 mile of the boundary. There are a lot of complaints of people who can't take their children to school as their vehicle isn't compliant and they can't afford to change it.

Again...so what is your proposal?  Do nothing until natural selection kills all the dirty vehicles? I.E. status quo.

So many people argue against "green" measures, and that is fine, but they have no proposals other than "steady as she goes" as the captain of the Titanic probably said a few times.  Oh, or "leave it to China"  😀

silvercar

thevilla said:

silvercar said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

thevilla said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

So? what?  Status quo?

I am within 1 mile of the boundary. There are a lot of complaints of people who can't take their children to school as their vehicle isn't compliant and they can't afford to change it.

Again...so what is your proposal?  Do nothing until natural selection kills all the dirty vehicles? I.E. status quo.

So many people argue against "green" measures, and that is fine, but they have no proposals other than "steady as she goes" as the captain of the Titanic probably said a few times.  Oh, or "leave it to China"  😀

I have no solution, the only point I would echo is Martin Lewis’s point that no is not the right time to introduce measures that are going to cause hardship.

JKenH

What’s going on at Tesla?

Video from electrifying.com covering the price changes ver the last few weeks in the UK.

https://youtu.be/pPP-KK93k0A

JKenH

Used car market down but EVs buck trend

Used battery electric vehicle (BEV) transactions bucked the overall trend, recording their best-ever annual performance with a record 71,071 units finding new owners in 2022, a rise of 37.5%, and boosting their overall market share to 1.0%, from 0.7% in 2021. Robust demand for other alternatively fuelled vehicles continued, too, with sales of hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) rising 8.6% and plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEVs) transactions up 3.6%.



https://www.smmt.co.uk/2023/02/used-car-market-down-but-evs-buck-trend/

70sbudgie

JKenH said:

Using these figures the CO2 saving works out at 142g/mile.

Ok, it isn't the 250g/mile previously quoted. But I would suggest that 140g/mile is not an insignificant saving. Seeing as miles are usually measured in the thousands over a year (even tens of thousands?).

Edit to leave just the most relevant quote

JKenH

thevilla said:

silvercar said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

thevilla said:

michaels said:

Of course if you only factor in the gains then a policy looks like a winner.  There were also losses in terms of reduced personal mobility, greater impact on poorer members of society, potentially early scrap-page of vehicles that would otherwise have spread the sunk cost of CO2 in manufacture over more miles etc etc.  The reduction in particulates may well outweigh these dis-benefits but ignoring them is very typical of politicians

So? what?  Status quo?

I am within 1 mile of the boundary. There are a lot of complaints of people who can't take their children to school as their vehicle isn't compliant and they can't afford to change it.

Again...so what is your proposal?  Do nothing until natural selection kills all the dirty vehicles? I.E. status quo.

So many people argue against "green" measures, and that is fine, but they have no proposals other than "steady as she goes" as the captain of the Titanic probably said a few times.  Oh, or "leave it to China"  😀

 A good start would be for Sadiq Khan to practice what he preaches.

Hypocrisy to make you fume

The Labour Mayor of London has railed against car owners for years and has repeatedly badgered drivers to stop taking unnecessary, short journeys.

His office issued an alarming report last Monday warning that car pollution was endangering the lives of 3.1million children in England – and praised the Mayor’s policies to cut emissions.

But three days later, he was seen being driven with his wife Saadiya and dog Luna in a convoy of three vehicles, including a £75,000 Jaguar with a fivelitre petrol engine, a £50,000 diesel Volkswagen Caravelle people-carrier, and a Volvo hybrid SUV worth £50,000.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20210822/281973200736172

Edit: I was sure I had posted this earlier but something must have gone wrong.

JKenH

Used electric car prices caught in vicious downward cycle as experts warn of trouble ahead

Plummeting used electric car values are in danger of knocking the wind out of the sails of the new EV market, warn experts.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/used-electric-car-prices-caught-in-vicious-downward-cycle-as-experts-warn-of-more-trouble-ahead/279724

JKenH

End in sight for used EV value decline 'pain', says Cap HPI

https://www.am-online.com/news/used-cars/2023/02/14/end-in-sight-for-used-ev-value-slump-says-cap-hpi-s-derren-martin

1961Nick

JKenH said:

End in sight for used EV value decline 'pain', says Cap HPI

https://www.am-online.com/news/used-cars/2023/02/14/end-in-sight-for-used-ev-value-slump-says-cap-hpi-s-derren-martin

I found a WBAC valuation for October of last year for both our cars. Since then, the Tesla has dropped £12,800 but the Evoque has gone up £2,700. That pretty much concurs with what this guy is saying.

The Tesla was overpriced at that time imo having only lost around £7K in 18 months & 24K miles. Previous diesel cars would have dropped £20K to £25K over the same period (although with 50% more mileage).