EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

JKenH said:

I just checked and WLTP range of the M3P is 340 miles! 

Edit: The data in the test quoted is from fleet averages - real life. It will probably be about 40mpg for a 1.0 Golf on a fleet.

There is zero chance of achieving that ... drive like Miss Daisy & you might crack 300.

Petriix

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

I just checked and WLTP range of the M3P is 340 miles! 

Edit: The data in the test quoted is from fleet averages - real life. It will probably be about 40mpg for a 1.0 Golf on a fleet.

There is zero chance of achieving that ... drive like Miss Daisy & you might crack 300.

I came reasonably close to achieving 300 miles in my 48.8kWh MG5 with some extreme hypermiling (more like 280 if extrapolated to the full battery). With 80kWh I expect I could get about 450 miles in the right conditions; the trick is avoiding the motorway and sticking to 55mph max. 

JKenH

Richard Symons who is an EV specialist from Hampshire doing YouTube videos was getting 7mpk from some cars on an efficiency test he did. 

https://youtu.be/sqj0NcWBAZ8

I hear of e-Niro drivers claiming to have got 350miles from a full charge. 

Grumpy_chap

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. 

I noted that.  In particular, comparing the TM3LR vs the TMYLR.  As I understand it, both cars use the same internals.  The TMY is heavier, taller, greater volume, less aerodynamic so would have poorer range than the TM3.  The chart shows the TM3 having the lower range, both summer and winter metrics.  This does not seem as on would expect.

I think, at best, the data that was presented can be used as a comparative piece and / or a conversation starter.  I was surprised to see the Hyundai Kona so far out ahead - it was a shame the sister Kia E-Niro is not in the presentation to give some indication of benchmark how realistic that data for the Kona is.

It is also striking how some cars are showing a 25 - 30% drop in range in winter (which I suspect is genuine) while the E-Tron and the iPace are shown with <10% seasonal variation.  I suspect the methodology has resulted in these low variances being shown but unrealistic.

If some manufacturers have "cracked it" in terms of winter impact on range, then expect to see that development emulated across the board in the next few years.  As a minimum, expect to see whatever technology Audi applied to the E-Tron in the ID4 very soon.  I am not so convinced that the data is sufficiently complete to say that this is the change we will see...

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

https://electrek.co/2022/12/13/worried-about-winter-range-loss-see-how-over-a-dozen-evs-compare/

The figures for the TM3LR look very low. 

I noted that.  In particular, comparing the TM3LR vs the TMYLR.  As I understand it, both cars use the same internals.  The TMY is heavier, taller, greater volume, less aerodynamic so would have poorer range than the TM3.  The chart shows the TM3 having the lower range, both summer and winter metrics.  This does not seem as on would expect.

I think, at best, the data that was presented can be used as a comparative piece and / or a conversation starter.  I was surprised to see the Hyundai Kona so far out ahead - it was a shame the sister Kia E-Niro is not in the presentation to give some indication of benchmark how realistic that data for the Kona is.

It is also striking how some cars are showing a 25 - 30% drop in range in winter (which I suspect is genuine) while the E-Tron and the iPace are shown with <10% seasonal variation.  I suspect the methodology has resulted in these low variances being shown but unrealistic.

If some manufacturers have "cracked it" in terms of winter impact on range, then expect to see that development emulated across the board in the next few years.  As a minimum, expect to see whatever technology Audi applied to the E-Tron in the ID4 very soon.  I am not so convinced that the data is sufficiently complete to say that this is the change we will see...

How the data was gathered

The study of winter range loss across thirteen popular EV models comes from Recurrent – a company that provides free battery monitoring for over 10,000 EV owners in the United States alone. Each vehicle battery is checked several times per day through onboard telematics (with the driver’s permission of course).

Those battery insights over the weeks and months allow Recurrent to draw conclusions about an individual vehicle’s current range, how that range will fluctuate in different conditions, and how it compares to hundreds or thousands of similar vehicles.

In this instance, Recurrent aggregated and anonymized data from 7,000 vehicles in its EV community, as well as tens of thousands of data points from on-board devices that provide data on energy usage. The result is both estimated and verified range loss in EVs comparing temperatures of 70℉ to 20-30℉. Take a look.

This is not a controlled test so there could be many variables affecting the data. For instance, Jaguar and Audi drivers may be wealthier and keep their cars in garages overnight so they fare better in winter. Perhaps TMY drivers do and TM3 don’t. I believe the table was used by the author of the article to demonstrate that there can be a significant range loss in winter with EVs and some fare worse than others. The data confirms the first part of the thesis but may be flawed as a data source for comparing different models for the reasons I have given above. 

I copied the table (and linked the source as I always do) simply to confirm @Michaels experience of poor winter range for the iD4 and demonstrate that that doesn’t necessarily imply poor summer range.

Please feel free to criticise the data as much as you like. I am happy that it confirms the point I was making. If you have some data that shows that the iD4 performs as badly in summer as it does in winter please feel free to post that.

Edit: In accordance with normal forum discussions someone will now post that the data is rubbish and it would have been better to have posted nothing rather than this garbage and I am only posting it because I hate Tesla and love VW and for good measure I am being sponsored by the oil companies and legacy motor manufacturers to undermine EV adoption….

Grumpy_chap

@JKenH - I was not criticising you and apologise if that is how my post read.

I thought my comments were fair and in appropriate context.

I had responded to the comments about the TM3 data being apparently low and did so in a narrow way, referencing to the TMY rather than any other random vehicle in the data set.

My thoughts then expanded to the other apparent anomalies between like vehicles and whether any car currently available really has a delta between summer and winter range that is really that much better than any other.

I have found the ideal way to crush all those dinosaurs that are sponsored by legacy auto and big oil to spew out EV bashing garbage:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9148853

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

@JKenH - I was not criticising you and apologise if that is how my post read.

I thought my comments were fair and in appropriate context.

I had responded to the comments about the TM3 data being apparently low and did so in a narrow way, referencing to the TMY rather than any other random vehicle in the data set.

My thoughts then expanded to the other apparent anomalies between like vehicles and whether any car currently available really has a delta between summer and winter range that is really that much better than any other.

I have found the ideal way to crush all those dinosaurs that are sponsored by legacy auto and big oil to spew out EV bashing garbage:
https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9148853

Fair enough @Grumpy_chap. I was just preempting comments from my stalker who has yet to make a comment on this latest discussion. 

I often find referencing some link or data to demonstrate one point leads to some other comment or data in the link or article (which I haven’t referenced) being seized upon in an attempt to undermine a perfectly valid point. I accept this was not your intention and apologise for reacting in a way that might reasonably have led you to believe that my final paragraph might be aimed at you. I would just like to assure you it wasn’t.

JKenH

How far can electric cars go in winter?

What Car? have just published their winter range test in the latest edition of the magazine with genuine back to back comparisons. All cars started out cold after standing overnight and had the heating set to the same temperature and were driven on the same closed circuit, a mix of urban stop/start and 70mph driving. I am sorry I only have a link via Readly. 

Suggestion about What Car? March 2023 page 93
https://go.readly.com/magazines/532c31a001704d0ca7000096/63eca204111d8e001fdffed6/93

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

How far can electric cars go in winter?

It would be really great if What Car repeat the exact same tests with the exact same cars in summer conditions (with aircon) and can then provide a table showing official range, summer test range, winter test range.

While data sets are always open to challenge, the important thing is to build more data and grow the public understanding of the range and weather impacts such that consumers are better aware and expectations more achievable.

It is also useful that What Car show the energy cost per mile (based on easily accessible and realistic electric costs) which is attractive compared to ICE alternatives.  Not as attractive at present as it once was, and the cost-to-acquire is a bigger challenge when the energy / fuel costs are closer.
Obviously, some will have far more attractive electricity costs which will improve the energy cost per mile, but these options are not available to all.  No-one has access to cheaper petrol / diesel than the consumer rates.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

How far can electric cars go in winter?

It would be really great if What Car repeat the exact same tests with the exact same cars in summer conditions (with aircon) and can then provide a table showing official range, summer test range, winter test range.

While data sets are always open to challenge, the important thing is to build more data and grow the public understanding of the range and weather impacts such that consumers are better aware and expectations more achievable.

It is also useful that What Car show the energy cost per mile (based on easily accessible and realistic electric costs) which is attractive compared to ICE alternatives.  Not as attractive at present as it once was, and the cost-to-acquire is a bigger challenge when the energy / fuel costs are closer.
Obviously, some will have far more attractive electricity costs which will improve the energy cost per mile, but these options are not available to all.  No-one has access to cheaper petrol / diesel than the consumer rates.

WhatCar? had tested 3 of the cars in summer and they did a comparison in the same article. For the record the WhatCar? Winter tests were carried out at 3 to 6C, so probably average UK winter conditions rather than -1 to -7 used in the Recurrent data, more typical of a U.S. winter.