EV Discussion thread

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

Revealed: The used electric cars that DROPPED the most in value in January

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/revealed-the-used-electric-cars-that-dropped-the-most-in-value-in-january/279289

michaels said:

How is the reliability and battery longevity on the ipace, looking likema cracking sh buy.

Great news for the second hand EV market if the bubble is finally bursting. Hopefully we will see 3 year old cars at low 40% new price in the not to distant future, especially good if new prices are also falling.

I am not sure how useful that headline article is - it needs to take into account average vehicle age this year compared with last and that seems to be overlooked.  The TESLA Model S is shown as the biggest fall in average price.  If I understand correctly, no TESLA Model S cars were available new last year, so the average age of the cars this year must be older.  Just one vehicle where the headline change in price can be explained (to some extent at least).

The iPace prices were firmer when I looked around two-three weeks ago than when I looked late October.  I looked again today and the prices have moved in the buyer's favour somewhat (compared to both a couple of weeks back and compared to October).

I am not sure what point you are trying to make - methinks you are just being a grumpy chap?😉 The report gives an indication which EVs have fallen in value and which have gone up and of trends. No doubt Autotrader have some algorithm which takes into account vehicle age with weighting. I am sure someone must have thought about it. They are looking at hundreds of ‘000s of cars so its going to be done by computer. You are probably right about the Model S so should it be excluded from the report or is it better to leave it in? Or should the report not have been issued?

Edit: I think I have seen other Autotrader reports where they say they compare a price of a one year old car now with what a one year old car would sell for last year, for example comparing the price of a Jan 22 now with the price of a Jan 21 car 12 months ago. 

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

compare a price of a one year old car now with what a one year old car would sell for last year, for example comparing the price of a Jan 22 now with the price of a Jan 21 car 12 months ago. 

That element was not obvious to me when I first read the linked article - it does make it all more consistent and therefore the conclusions more valid

JKenH

1 Death = Total Recall: Volvo Quietly Blows Tesla Out of the Water

I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.




https://securityboulevard.com/2021/10/1-death-total-recall-volvo-quietly-blows-tesla-out-of-the-water/

JKenH

2022 UK Electric Car Sales Report

Some fun facts about EV sales which you might not know.

Another way to look at it is by EV sales share is for each brand. For example in December 2022

• 88% of the cars sold by MG were fully electric. 
• Perhaps surprisingly, BMW the company that said there was no customer demand for EV’s, had 35% of its UK sales from EV’s. Diesel was 3%.
• VW was 28% EV while Audi was a little behind at 22% EV
• Nissan was 30% EV
• Ford… 2% EV. The new electric Puma can’t come soon enough.
• Toyota sold around 1% EV’s in December
• Renault though added some va va voom at 53% pure EV. 
• and Hyundai and Kia?. 17% EV share for each.. not what most EV aficionados would imagine
• by comparison even Mini had 20% EV sales, Mercedes managed 23%, Skoda 25% and Volvo 23%
• 38% of Porsche sales were electric
• the Stellantis brands pretty much vanished from the UK sales stats in December so I won’t pick on them as they clearly had some temporary issues. To put it in perspective Fiat and Citroen were each outsold by Porsche at a 3:1 ratio! Porsche outsold Peugeot by 2:1 while Vauxhall managed to outsell Porsche by about 300 cars!

https://myurbancar.com/2023/01/05/2022-uk-electric-car-sales-report/

ABrass

JKenH said:

1 Death = Total Recall: Volvo Quietly Blows Tesla Out of the Water

I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.




https://securityboulevard.com/2021/10/1-death-total-recall-volvo-quietly-blows-tesla-out-of-the-water/

It's !!!!!!.

The Author doesn't understand the stats they're quoting. For example they state that there were only 7 Volt deaths despite it being high volume. What they actually linked to was 7 deaths per million vehicle years. It also was from 2017 when they claimed the numbers included 2020 as well. Also Tesla weren't even in that report. Utterly failing to understand what they were looking at.

Apparently that table is showing one years US sales and the cumulative deaths for three years. But since the stats come from 'tesladeaths' I'm not confident it's worth checking. Especially since the model 3 was produced in greater than 51,000 quantity since 2018. The numbers are just junk.

As always, check your sources, that one wasn't worth repeating.

shinytop

JKenH said:

1 Death = Total Recall: Volvo Quietly Blows Tesla Out of the Water

I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.




https://securityboulevard.com/2021/10/1-death-total-recall-volvo-quietly-blows-tesla-out-of-the-water/

It's obvious.  It's the drivers, not the cars.  Tesla = the new BMW, Nissan = old codgers in flat caps.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1 Death = Total Recall: Volvo Quietly Blows Tesla Out of the Water

I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.




https://securityboulevard.com/2021/10/1-death-total-recall-volvo-quietly-blows-tesla-out-of-the-water/

Tesla have sold 2.5M Model 3's whereas Porsche haven't made 100K Taycans yet. Also the typical Model 3 covers a lot more miles pa than the typical Taycan judging by the mileage of used models. The 'Tesla' death figure is not just the occupants of the Tesla - it includes pedestrians, cyclists & occupants of the other vehicle(s). It's doubtful that such detailed analysis is available for the other brands in the table.

Here's the raw data so fill your boots....

https://www.tesladeaths.com/

michaels

JKenH said:

1 Death = Total Recall: Volvo Quietly Blows Tesla Out of the Water

I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.




https://securityboulevard.com/2021/10/1-death-total-recall-volvo-quietly-blows-tesla-out-of-the-water/

I think the linked article may win the award for funniest misuse of statistics ever.  Problem is the vast majority of the population is not numerate enough to understand when statistics are being used improperly.  Tesla quarterly safety reports are another example of the misuse of statistics....

1961Nick

michaels said:

JKenH said:

1 Death = Total Recall: Volvo Quietly Blows Tesla Out of the Water

I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.




https://securityboulevard.com/2021/10/1-death-total-recall-volvo-quietly-blows-tesla-out-of-the-water/

I think the linked article may win the award for funniest misuse of statistics ever.  Problem is the vast majority of the population is not numerate enough to understand when statistics are being used improperly.  Tesla quarterly safety reports are another example of the misuse of statistics....

Clear instances of a single death being recorded multiple times with links to different publications reporting the same incident.

Recording this sort of incident as a "Tesla" death is beyond ridiculous & the table is full of them...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5987991/Former-St-Louis-police-chiefs-wife-killed-freak-accident.html

JKenH

Lots of good points made here about the statistics but the outrage seems disproportionate to my comments in the original post. Why does any negative post about Tesla arouse such vitriolic reaction?

What I posted was 

“I came across this table and linked article on Twitter today but it dates back to 2021.  I thought it was interesting given Tesla regularly comes out top in vehicle safety tests. Perhaps there is more to it.”

Well, yes there was more to it. The data was presented in a way that reflected badly on Tesla just as Cleantechica at al and Tesla themselves present data about their autopilot safety record in a manner which reflects well on them. 

But then again some of the responses are just as misrepresentative. For instance, the statistics posted statistics to discredit the numbers in the table I posted. The table I posted which was accompanied by the comment “ Perhaps there is more to it” refers to 141 deaths. 

To discredit this a spreadsheet is then posted listing media reports some of which refer to the same deaths. This duplication results in 356 deaths being totalled on the spreadsheet which is clearly incorrect. That may simply be poor formatting of the spreadsheet but the 356 deaths is irrelevant as as that is not the figure used in the article/table I posted. 

So can we scale down the outrage and hyperbole (“beyond ridiculous”, “junk”) please and go back to the actual crux of my post which is; 

Tesla on paper make very safe cars as witnessed by excellent performance in official safety tests but real world evidence suggests that this excellent performance in safety tests does not necessarily translate into reduced numbers of real world fatalities compared to other some vehicles from other manufacturers. 

As an example are you more likely to die if a driver or passenger in a Tesla than in some other models of cars such as the Volvo XC90? It could be as @shinytop suggests be down to the driver mentality/experience/age but at the end of the day the statistics might still suggest that your chances of dying in a Tesla are greater than in the. XC90.

If this topic is worthy of discussion (you might feel it isn’t) then let’s make that discussion more nuanced rather than simply trying to shoot down the argument with outrage and hyperbole because somebody has criticised your favourite brand of car. For instance if Tesla isn’t the safest car to travel in, it may still be the safest to be struck by as a pedestrian or cyclist. Are Teslas involved in more or less accidents than other cars of the same age? Leaving aside the spurious Tesla Autopilot safety reports are there any other statistics readily to hand?

The other point of the original article which we shouldn’t really ignore is how Tesla as a manufacturer reacts to accidents. Is it better or worse than other manufacturers? Is it significant that there are so many NHTSA investigations ongoing into Tesla or is this misrepresented?