EV Discussion thread

shinytop

You made the same decision I did.  Until  Grumpy_chap said:

That Twingo looks very viable if, indeed, it lands at EURO23k, so £20k sterling it will compete well against the Fiesta ICE (from £18k) or even more favourably against the true city cars such as the (now defunct) Ka.

The Twingo isn't really in the same class as a Fiesta; it's much smaller, with minimal luggage space.  And even the Cleantechnica writer admits it has a 90km cold motorway range.  A Fiesta isn't really a city car/second car runabout; it's a first and only car for a lot of people. 

The Twingo should be compared against the likes of a Kia Picanto or Hyundai i10 at about £13k and then it looks very expensive.  

Martyn1981

@Grumpy_chap - I was just thinking back to the TM3 / Lexus comparson you did a year or so back, given the big price increase in the TM3 this year, and it got me wondering - How does the TMY compare to Lexus?

I'm not being completely lazy, I did have a look at the Lexus site, but wasn't sure which vehicles were the right comparison, and also they seem to have a PHEV, which adds another layer of comparison (or not).

So now that Tesla has launched the standard range (RWD) model Y, in the UK, so similar power level(?) to the lexus, I was wondering how the companies compared in the faux SUV market?

Grumpy_chap

I haven't re-done the TM3 / Lexus comparison (it was the ES I compared) but the Lexus was previously priced at £36k with a £4k "incentive" making it £32k.  Same car is now £40k with no discounts.  The TM3 has also increased in price, so I suspect a repeat comparison would produce similar outcomes.

I don't consider that power output is the valid comparison for selecting an equivalent ICE to EV - for the majority of buyers that is not the primary consideration otherwise everyone would be driving M4's and such like.

In the faux-SUV market, Lexus now have the UX which is available as full EV.  I am perplexed why Lexus bother with the PHEV's and, even, how long the hybrid options will be sustainable.

Martyn1981

Thanks GC. And sorry, badly worded, I didn't mean lots of power, or most power, I just meant to help better match the vehicles by choosing the closest match as my quick perusal of the Lexus site and models, showed a choice of engine options and mixes. So whichever model and spec more closely matches the TMY SR of ~250hp.

I forgot about the UX, but I can't find it available in the UK, plus it seems to have quite low range, and low fast charge "upto 50kW", which must be a typo, Shirley.

[Edit - Couldn't find it on EV_database.uk, but it's on their .org site, showing as no longer in production for the UK.]

The TM3 might come in close to the ES now, in price terms, if Tesla get production in China ramped back up, and reduce the price. But I suppose the exact same probably applies to Lexus too, so ~£10k difference may still remain, but I'm pondering too many variables now. So you may have some insight (which I'd appreciate), but may be better to wait and see how 2023 evolves?

silverwhistle

shinytop said:

 A Fiesta isn't really a city car/second car runabout; it's a first and only car for a lot of people.

Yep, it was the very heavily laden car I owned when I moved to live in Italy. People with company cars often forget the costs and realities of car ownership.

I've now got an MG4, and although there is a fluid leak issue ATM, news will be published tomorrow of a resolution, which is a relief as it a lovely car to drive. I know there is a shortage of certain models of EV, but a month ago I was asked if I was interested in trading in my old car, had an offer, expressed an interest in an MG4, accepted the colour they had available and had it a week later.

I accepted the lower range model as in practice although I intend to go to Italy in it there aren't many long runs I do on a regular basis. My neighbour and friend asked me could I do Heathrow and back on one charge. I grinned and asked him "Yes, easily. When?". If one is realistic about the range one does you don't need to carry a massive battery around all the time. I wouldn't want  a Honda level range but the 200 plus of the MG4 will do me well.

Grumpy_chap

There have been so many people leaving positive reviews of their experience with the MG4, it is starting to make me feel quite tempted.

Grumpy_chap

Grumpy_chap said:

There seem to be some manufacturers (Ford is another one) that are remaining committed to the ICE and just producing the solo EV model to get a tick in the box and not really worrying about the car being any good, or available, or priced correctly because, well "It's EV innit - that'll never catch on".  I suspect in this revolution, we will see some big names fail.

Martyn1981 said:

Dangerous to bet on who goes first, 

You're right about Ford (and GM may be similar (due to product problems)), they talk a good talk, but are still well behind the curve in actual BEV sales / BEV % of sales.

Well, it is not EV matter, but Ford seem to be suffering from mis-management and failure to respond to global events.  For much of the past year, there was a freeze on taking orders for Fiesta and Focus models.  Supposedly solely because the chip shortage and then the restriction of some part made in Ukraine critical for the stereo unit - that may have caused some disruption but, surely, you'd find a way round it using a generic stereo if it came to it.

Ford quietly killed off the Mondeo.
Now the Fiesta is for the chop - despite the fact this would be topping sales charts still if Ford could supply them:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63391466
(The article also states "It has already dropped the Focus model too" but I suspect that is a mis-type for Mondeo though happy to be corrected.)

In the article, Ford seem to be blaming the need to switch to electric cars.  Given the lack of desire from Ford for EV's, and the troubles surrounding their only EV car, this is either an epiphany moment or the Management scraping around for anything other than themselves to blame business decline.

I actually like Ford cars, so will be sorry to see them go, but such is life...

Maybe it is the epiphany moment and some great announcements are only weeks away...

michaels

Or perhaps they are just moving out of high volume low profit small vehicles to the SUVs that everyone wants to buy.  The more compulsory safety tech the harder it is going to be to make a profit on such old fashioned vehicles.

Grumpy_chap

TESLA sent me a marketing e-mail for the Model Y on business contract hire at £461 per month (+VAT).  Significantly, there is claimed quick lead time ("2022").

For a comparison, headline equivalent price on the manufacturer's website for Audi Q5 is £438 per month.

The devil will be in the detail but that is pretty much price-parity for businesses between ICE and EV.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

TESLA sent me a marketing e-mail for the Model Y on business contract hire at £461 per month (+VAT).  Significantly, there is claimed quick lead time ("2022").

For a comparison, headline equivalent price on the manufacturer's website for Audi Q5 is £438 per month.

The devil will be in the detail but that is pretty much price-parity for businesses between ICE and EV.

Presumably if it is a business lease you will be an employee and enjoy substantial tax advantages if you choose the Model Y over the Q5.

Edit: several leasing companies are advertising the model Y as “in stock” whereas the Audi has a typical 20 week wait. With Tesla having already cut prices in China (where the Model Y is I believe made for the UK market) it might be worth hanging on for a cheaper deal.