EV Discussion thread

JKenH

There are situations where a BEV van may work very well, such as for our local postie or for a gardener/plumber/builder/tradesman etc who covers a small area close to home/base. The promotion of BE Vans as a universal solution does not work and inevitably leads to negativity from those for whom they are not suited. HMG and SMMT are so wedded to the ideology behind the ZEV mandate that they either can’t see this or just want to brush it under the carpet.

JKenH

ZEV order quotas creating dilemmas for van fleet replacements, warns AFP

AFP chair Paul Hollick explained: “It’s quickly becoming a widespread practice that when a fleet wants to order a quantity of vans, manufacturers are asserting that a percentage is electric – often 10% to reflect the 2024 ZEV mandate.

“The problem is that some fleets just don’t have a role for these electric vans within their business. Their payload and range requirements mean there is no operational profile for which the electric van can be practically used, or there is no suitable charging infrastructure.”

Hollick said that the situation presented a dilemma for fleets – whether to switch to manufacturers not insisting on order quotas, to not replace existing diesel vehicles and keep operating them for longer, or to buy quota electric vans and use them for occasional lighter duties or simply park them up.

https://fleetworld.co.uk/zev-order-quotas-creating-dilemmas-for-van-fleet-replacements-warns-afp/

Sounds just like the old Soviet style of central planning. Some firms are effectively forced to buy EVs that they then might just park up. That will work well for climate change. BE Vans produced at enormous CO2 cost to the planet to stand idle just to meet a quota. Didn’t that happen with EVs as well that a council bought and didn’t use?

Edit: link found

Nearly 200 Glasgow City Council electric cars found unused in car parks

Nearly 200 electric cars funded by the taxpayer have been found unused in car parks where they have been for nearly two years - weeks before Glasgow hosts COP26.
https://www.glasgowworld.com/news/politics/nearly-200-glasgow-city-council-electric-cars-found-unused-in-car-parks-3416326

michaels

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Electric van demand falls as zero emission target downgraded

Deliveries of zero emission LCVs declined last month, with new battery electric van (BEV) uptake falling to 861 units, down 42.4% compared with last year’s uplift in demand.

It means BEVs accounted for just 3.6% of all new LCV registrations compared with 6.6% in April last year.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/electric-van-demand-falls-as-zero-emission-target-downgraded

I was talking to a neighbour who has been told by his employer that his next works van will be electric. He's looked at the spec of the vehicle & the range is 150 miles unladed. The problem is that he often does more than that in a day plus being 'on call'. His tools alone weigh a nearly a tonne added to which is the weight of any equipment he's taking to & from the job. The van needs to be on site at all times to access the tools. We both reckoned that any cost saving over running a diesel LCV will be minute compared to the cost of 2 expensive electricians taking several detours every week to charge the van. It will also mean he can't respond to an out of hours call from home if the van has insufficient charge... quite likely seeing as the employer wants the fleet charging off-peak!

A rough calculation suggests that this 100% EV policy will cost this organisation around £500K pa in wages plus another £400K in wage related overhead (including overtime). The fuel saving is around £200K.

I wonder if there tax breaks as otherwise that model would appear to make no sense for a business.  I have no idea how far on average a van travels in a day, I suspect it might be quite variable depending on whether it is a local or not so local job which is not a great use case for an EV.  Local / last mile delivery seems to make more sense?

Edit:  Could this be a good use case for battery swap technology where the value of time makes a quick swap faciality economically viable?

One of the engineers that had an electric van on trial claimed the cold weather range dropped as low as 80 miles on some days. Another observation was that the heavy payload (over 3.5 tonne gvw) cancelled the efficiency advantage an EV usually has in low speed stop/start urban driving. 

Can quite believe that a 40kwh enz200 for example only gets 80 mile in the cold, especially on faster routes.  However I am a bit surprised that the regen is less effective if they are heavily laden - is the theory that there is insufficient regen so the friction brakes have to be used?

Magnitio

Until recently, the range of EV vans was quite poor, but the Mercedes vans are now available with a 113kWh battery and a range of up to 248 miles. The ID Buzz up to 256 miles. This may not be suitable for all use cases, but batteries and efficiency are improving. If the rate of progress continues over the next 5 years a range of 300+ miles could be the norm. What we desperately need is improvements to charging infrastructure to support the increased take-up. Speaking recently to a DPD courier in an electric van, he said it's by far the best van he's ever had: quick, quiet and easy to drive.

Martyn1981

Magnitio said:

Until recently, the range of EV vans was quite poor, but the Mercedes vans are now available with a 113kWh battery and a range of up to 248 miles. The ID Buzz up to 256 miles. This may not be suitable for all use cases, but batteries and efficiency are improving. If the rate of progress continues over the next 5 years a range of 300+ miles could be the norm. What we desperately need is improvements to charging infrastructure to support the increased take-up. Speaking recently to a DPD courier in an electric van, he said it's by far the best van he's ever had: quick, quiet and easy to drive.

Similar with the E-Transit from Ford, recently upgraded to an 'up to' range of ~250 miles. But of course, 'up to' on WLTP figures, and different uses especially in mid winter will mean much less, but going in the right direction, and hopefully suitable for ever more uses/roles.

JKenH

Another anti-PHEV study - in what way does this differ from the anti EV FUD that we hear so much about? What I take issue with is, is the use of the words would and do/don’t (my bold in the quote below) rather than could or might/might not. The same arguments that are made for EVs can also often be applied to PHEVs (average journey length, infrequency of long trips etc) so that for many PHEV buyers, who do all their daily commuting on electricity, they could even do better than the “manufacturers’s claims” suggest. 

The so called “manufacturers’s claims” are in fact the same mandated WLTP figures that EV manufacturers have to use which also have consistently proved to be overstated for most of the year. At least with a PHEV if you do have the ideal usage pattern you can beat WLTP figures and some people might just possibly choose a modern PHEV because they have looked at their usage pattern and decided that the electric range will cover most of their usage. For a second car a PHEV can make a lot of sense. 

Yes, there will be those who get them the BIK benefits on SalSac schemes, who can’t and won’t ever plug in, and they will save less than WLTP figures suggest but you don’t have to be a brain surgeon to work that one out, anymore than it might cost you more to run an EV if you can’t charge at home. 

The EV lobby is really picking up on this story and pushing it hard without application of any nuance. Why not acknowledge that, for those unsuited to an EV, running a PHEV might in many cases be far better than sticking with an ICE car or even a hybrid for the next 10 years. 

Study: Running costs for plug-in hybrids can be double manufacturers' claims

The results suggest PHEVs are still cheaper to run than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, delivering savings of £593 a year compared to the £1,652 it would cost to fuel an equivalent petrol car. But PHEV fuel costs are much higher than the £388 ECIU calculated it would cost to run a comparable battery electric vehicle (BEV).

Colin Walker, transport analyst at ECIU, said it was important drivers were made aware that PHEVs would not deliver the fuel savings promised by manufacturers and as a result would be "much more expensive" to run than expected.

"Some drivers likely see switching to a hybrid as a step in the direction towards a proper EV, thinking that they'll save a lot on fuel and be doing their bit to reduce CO2 emissions," he said. "But its important they are made aware of the fact that, according to the data, not only do PHEVs produce 350 per cent more CO2 than their manufacturers claim, they won't deliver fuel savings anywhere near as impressive as they are being led to believe."

https://www.businessgreen.com/news/4206405/study-running-costs-plug-hybrids-double-manufacturers-claims

ABrass

Actual study here https://eciu.net/analysis/reports/2024/the-real-life-costs-of-fuelling-a-phev

It's not that interesting really, everyone should know that PHEVs don't get anything like the predicted efficiency unless the driver is obsessive about plugging in.

JKenH

ABrass said:

Actual study here https://eciu.net/analysis/reports/2024/the-real-life-costs-of-fuelling-a-phev

It's not that interesting really, everyone should know that PHEVs don't get anything like the predicted efficiency unless the driver is obsessive about plugging in.

And if they are obsessive about plugging in they will get far better efficiency, which if you decide to buy one with your own money you probably would be. 

JKenH

EV sales are having a rough time in Ireland and there I was thinking it was a progressive country.

EV sales slide accelerates, Simi figures show

Registration of electric vehicles down 19% over first four months of the year against background of a 6% rise in overall car sales

Overall new car registrations were 3.6 per cent weaker in April than in the same month last year, with 8,591 cars registered over the month. But sales of electric vehicles was 41.4 per cent behind the April 2023 figure with just 1,091 registered.

So far this year figures for electric vehicles are down 19.1 per cent on the same four months in 2023. That continues a gradual worsening of the figures over recent months. At the end of March the year-to-date figure was 14.3 per cent weaker than last year. That compares with a 6 per cent rise in overall registrations so far this year.

“The electric vehicle segment experienced another month of decline in registrations, a trend which is being replicated across most EU markets,” Simi director general Brian Cooke said. “With the supply of new EVs no longer an issue, and with an increasing number of brands and models present in the EV segment, the drop in EV sales is demand driven. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2024/05/01/ev-sales-slide-is-becoming-increasingly-dramatic-simi-data-show/

JKenH

Joe Biden is taking a leaf out of Trump’s playbook and is set to quadruple tariffs on imports of Chinese EVs before they get going. Meanwhile China is looking at reducing battery manufacturing capacity. 

There are some indications that China is cooling its production of lithium-ion batteries used in EVs, cell phones and other consumer electronics at a time when it is facing increasing criticism from the West.

On Wednesday, China’s Ministry of Industry and Information Technology issued a draft rule aimed at “strengthening the management of the lithium-ion battery industry and promoting the sector’s high-quality growth.”

The draft, which was posted on the ministry’s website for public input, says companies should be striving for better technological innovation, higher quality and lower costs, rather than expanding existing capacity.

Lithium battery plants built in restricted farmlands or industrial zones should be shut down, the draft says.

https://cbs12.com/news/nation-world/new-tariffs-expected-sources-money-cost-price-tax-expensive-trade-china-ev-chinese-green-energy-imports-electric-vehicles-semiconductors-solar-equipment-medical-supplies