EV Discussion thread

JKenH

This issue is complicated. You may run a fleet of company cars where some drivers can charge at home at a couple of pence per mile while others without home charging could be paying in excess of 10p using, say, the Tesla network or even 20p or more per mile on the more expensive networks. What policy do you adopt for reimbursement? Do you pay everyone the 9p/mile HMRC advisory rate? Some inequalities are going to arise that might cause resentment. 

And that’s only looking at it from a driver’s perspective. 

It also begs the question ”why is EV charging so expensive”? Is it profiteering or does it genuinely cost some networks 80p/kWh to operate viably?

Fleet EV running costs ‘unsustainable’ without home charging

The cost of electricity from fast chargers on the public network is pricing some fleets out of adopting battery electric vehicles (BEVs), says the Association of Fleet Professionals (AFP).

For fleets whose drivers do not have access to home or depot charging, AFP chair Paul Hollick says that the pence per kWh price can make running costs unsustainable.

The total cost of ownership (TCO) argument for BEVs is based around low-cost charging. “Electric cars and vans are relatively expensive to buy, and residual values remain difficult to predict, but operators should be able to at least partially balance this out with low charging costs,” Hollick continued.

“Where this isn’t possible, some fleets are simply finding themselves priced out of electrification.”

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-ev-running-costs-unsustainable-without-home-charging

MeteredOut

JKenH said:

This issue is complicated. You may run a fleet of company cars where some drivers can charge at home at a couple of pence per mile while others without home charging could be paying in excess of 10p using, say, the Tesla network or even 20p or more per mile on the more expensive networks. What policy do you adopt for reimbursement? Do you pay everyone the 9p/mile HMRC advisory rate? Some inequalities are going to arise that might cause resentment. 

And that’s only looking at it from a driver’s perspective. 

It also begs the question ”why is EV charging so expensive”? Is it profiteering or does it genuinely cost some networks 80p/kWh to operate viably?

I'd wager a recouping of capital costs, and charging as much as they think they can away with (profiteering).

I wonder how many more years before we get a price cap on public charging?

michaels

It is noticeable that the price per kwh shot up as electricity wholesale prices spiked in the energy crisis but they have basically not fallen back at all since even though spot electricity prices are down to the single digit pennies.

Hmm

EricMears

JKenH said:

This issue is complicated. You may run a fleet of company cars where some drivers can charge at home at a couple of pence per mile while others without home charging could be paying in excess of 10p using, say, the Tesla network or even 20p or more per mile on the more expensive networks. What policy do you adopt for reimbursement? Do you pay everyone the 9p/mile HMRC advisory rate? Some inequalities are going to arise that might cause resentment. 

And that’s only looking at it from a driver’s perspective. 

It also begs the question ”why is EV charging so expensive”? Is it profiteering or does it genuinely cost some networks 80p/kWh to operate viably?

Fleet EV running costs ‘unsustainable’ without home charging

The cost of electricity from fast chargers on the public network is pricing some fleets out of adopting battery electric vehicles (BEVs), says the Association of Fleet Professionals (AFP).

For fleets whose drivers do not have access to home or depot charging, AFP chair Paul Hollick says that the pence per kWh price can make running costs unsustainable.

The total cost of ownership (TCO) argument for BEVs is based around low-cost charging. “Electric cars and vans are relatively expensive to buy, and residual values remain difficult to predict, but operators should be able to at least partially balance this out with low charging costs,” Hollick continued.

“Where this isn’t possible, some that eets are simply finding themselves priced out of electrification.”

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/fleet-ev-running-costs-unsustainable-without-home-charging

When reimbursing costs of using own EV on company business,  it seems quite reasonable that those drivers who have invested in a home charger should be able to recoup some of their outlay by making a 'profit' on the amounts claimed.

And companies that provide EV vans ought to be making some sort of provision for charging them.  Perhaps by installing their own chargers at company premises or maybe taking out some form of subscription ?

There are undoubtedly costs involved in installing and servicing rapid chargers and one really shouldn't expect to be able to use them for a similar price to buying electricity at home.  However,  it's very hard to believe  that the prices presently being charged are justified.

michaels

This suggests that a rapid charger costing £100k could easily bring in revenue of £75k pa of which about £30k is profit - sounds like a pretty good investment!

How to earn £1M from Rapid EV Chargers (zpnenergy.com)

MikeJXE

michaels said:

This suggests that a rapid charger costing £100k could easily bring in revenue of £75k pa of which about £30k is profit - sounds like a pretty good investment!

How to earn £1M from Rapid EV Chargers (zpnenergy.com)

If you can get the custom 

There is a garage near me and opposite a Tesco Extra that is very busy (2 minute walk)

The 3 fast chargers we're installed  about 3 months ago

I drive by there 4 or 5 times a week 

Rarely are they in use and if they are it is only one of them, so at the minute a huge loss

silvercar

MikeJXE said:

michaels said:

This suggests that a rapid charger costing £100k could easily bring in revenue of £75k pa of which about £30k is profit - sounds like a pretty good investment!

How to earn £1M from Rapid EV Chargers (zpnenergy.com)

If you can get the custom 

There is a garage near me and opposite a Tesco Extra that is very busy (2 minute walk)

The 3 fast chargers we're installed  about 3 months ago

I drive by there 4 or 5 times a week 

Rarely are they in use and if they are it is only one of them, so at the minute a huge loss

Agree. 4 podpoint destination chargers at my local train station, since podpoint introduced charging a few weeks ago there is rarely a car on them. 

michaels

I think there is still a tendency for people to see the charging market as being like the petrol market - in reality at least initially it will be the richer (I.e. those with off street parking) who adopt EVs and they will by default charge at home, only charging elsewhere when they need to for a trip beyond their range which in turn will impact where they rapid charge so the couple of petrol stations in each town/at the supermarket will initially not really see much volume, it will all go to chargers on major routes.

Later when more owners don't have off street parking/charging there will then be demand for rapid chargers in more traditional locations and especially ones where people might chose to spend time anyway - hence supermarkets.

JKenH

The rumour is now confirmed as policy. Will the EU and UK do something similar?

US Government quadruples tariffs on Chinese-made electric cars

Chinese electric cars imported to the US will now pay their value in tariffs on arrival – and analysts warn the new taxes may have a broader impact on vehicles sold by all manufacturers.

The US Government has quadrupled its tariff on Chinese-made electric vehicles – from 25 to 100 per cent – in a move claimed to be in response to "unfair trade practices" and "artificially low-priced" 

It will mean car makers will now pay the value of the Chinese-made electric vehicle arriving on US shores to the government in taxes, once the 100 per cent tariff comes into effect later this year.

The initial impact on US new-car buyers will not be significant, as there are only a handful of Chinese-built electric vehicles sold in the US – due in part to the previous tariff of 25 per cent, which remains in place for petrol-powered cars from China.

However, experts have warned the Biden Administration's new tariffs on other Chinese-made goods – including computer chips and electric-car battery materials – could impact vehicles made outside of China.

US tariffs on lithium-ion batteries made in China for electric cars will rise from 7.5 to 25 per cent in 2024, with Chinese lithium-ion batteries for all other applications to follow in 2026.

The same 25 per cent levy will be applied to key materials used in electric-car batteries and motors – natural graphite and permanent magnets from 2026, and "certain other critical minerals" this year – none of which currently incur a tariff.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/us-quadruples-tariffs-on-chinese-evs/

Magnitio

silvercar said:

MikeJXE said:

michaels said:

This suggests that a rapid charger costing £100k could easily bring in revenue of £75k pa of which about £30k is profit - sounds like a pretty good investment!

How to earn £1M from Rapid EV Chargers (zpnenergy.com)

If you can get the custom 

There is a garage near me and opposite a Tesco Extra that is very busy (2 minute walk)

The 3 fast chargers we're installed  about 3 months ago

I drive by there 4 or 5 times a week 

Rarely are they in use and if they are it is only one of them, so at the minute a huge loss

Agree. 4 podpoint destination chargers at my local train station, since podpoint introduced charging a few weeks ago there is rarely a car on them. 

I charged up in a new car park at the weekend with 18 chargers next to an array of about 600 solar panels. My car was the only one making use of the facility. I guess it might be busier during the week.