EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

michaels

1961Nick said:

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

I think we are agreeing, which ends up with a vehicle slightly wider than typical for that size class but probably cheaper than making a narrower vehicle.  Thing is the opportunity cost of using under utilised existing lines is minimal so in the short term clever accounting can make the vehicle a lot cheaper for that reason due to the capex saved.

Presumably they will need to make it look a lot different and reduce utility so as not to cannibalise 3 and y sales

1961Nick

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

I think we are agreeing, which ends up with a vehicle slightly wider than typical for that size class but probably cheaper than making a narrower vehicle.  Thing is the opportunity cost of using under utilised existing lines is minimal so in the short term clever accounting can make the vehicle a lot cheaper for that reason due to the capex saved.

Presumably they will need to make it look a lot different and reduce utility so as not to cannibalise 3 and y sales

I agree that it'll be quite wide for the segment but using the existing castings means that the scope for slimming it down is probably no more than 5cm or so. Legroom in the 3/Y is pretty generous so there's plenty of scope to shorten that section as well as chopping a bit off the overhangs. Load space should be decent as it'll be a hatchback. The motor will probably be the 3D3 front one from the 3/Y LR... 185bhp. With 5 miles/kWh a real world range would be 275 miles from a 55kWh LMFP CATL battery.

I'd also expect to see a premium option pack with things like seat heating, audio upgrade, powered tailgate etc. It's unlikely Tesla will offer individual options because they said sometime ago that it makes production unnecessarily complicated & therefore more expensive.

Netexporter

You can have any colour you like, as long as it's (electric) blue.

michaels

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

I think we are agreeing, which ends up with a vehicle slightly wider than typical for that size class but probably cheaper than making a narrower vehicle.  Thing is the opportunity cost of using under utilised existing lines is minimal so in the short term clever accounting can make the vehicle a lot cheaper for that reason due to the capex saved.

Presumably they will need to make it look a lot different and reduce utility so as not to cannibalise 3 and y sales

I agree that it'll be quite wide for the segment but using the existing castings means that the scope for slimming it down is probably no more than 5cm or so. Legroom in the 3/Y is pretty generous so there's plenty of scope to shorten that section as well as chopping a bit off the overhangs. Load space should be decent as it'll be a hatchback. The motor will probably be the 3D3 front one from the 3/Y LR... 185bhp. With 5 miles/kWh a real world range would be 275 miles from a 55kWh LMFP CATL battery.

I'd also expect to see a premium option pack with things like seat heating, audio upgrade, powered tailgate etc. It's unlikely Tesla will offer individual options because they said sometime ago that it makes production unnecessarily complicated & therefore more expensive.

Thinking about it are most / all the WV ID cars built on the same platform (plus of course a whole bunch that are badged skoda/audi/cupra)?  Tesla have obviously not exploited the 3 platform to nearly the same extent. (They could also have done more with the S/X platform)

1961Nick

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

I think we are agreeing, which ends up with a vehicle slightly wider than typical for that size class but probably cheaper than making a narrower vehicle.  Thing is the opportunity cost of using under utilised existing lines is minimal so in the short term clever accounting can make the vehicle a lot cheaper for that reason due to the capex saved.

Presumably they will need to make it look a lot different and reduce utility so as not to cannibalise 3 and y sales

I agree that it'll be quite wide for the segment but using the existing castings means that the scope for slimming it down is probably no more than 5cm or so. Legroom in the 3/Y is pretty generous so there's plenty of scope to shorten that section as well as chopping a bit off the overhangs. Load space should be decent as it'll be a hatchback. The motor will probably be the 3D3 front one from the 3/Y LR... 185bhp. With 5 miles/kWh a real world range would be 275 miles from a 55kWh LMFP CATL battery.

I'd also expect to see a premium option pack with things like seat heating, audio upgrade, powered tailgate etc. It's unlikely Tesla will offer individual options because they said sometime ago that it makes production unnecessarily complicated & therefore more expensive.

Thinking about it are most / all the WV ID cars built on the same platform (plus of course a whole bunch that are badged skoda/audi/cupra)?  Tesla have obviously not exploited the 3 platform to nearly the same extent. (They could also have done more with the S/X platform)

The S/X platform is fairly conventional so that means 'expensive' by Tesla's standards. The 3 started out with a conventional platform but it's now not only a new vehicle but an entirely new manufacturing concept - front & rear castings plus a passenger cell with the structural battery pack. These 3 sections have excellent torsional rigidity  reducing the amount of structural limitations on the overall body shape.

Tesla are clearly driven to make their vehicles as efficient as possible - low weight & drag are key to being able to use much smaller battery packs than their competitors for a given range. The reason for there only being 2 variations could be that the 3 & Y are the culmination of everything they've learnt about efficiency & any other design path would be inferior?

michaels

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

I think we are agreeing, which ends up with a vehicle slightly wider than typical for that size class but probably cheaper than making a narrower vehicle.  Thing is the opportunity cost of using under utilised existing lines is minimal so in the short term clever accounting can make the vehicle a lot cheaper for that reason due to the capex saved.

Presumably they will need to make it look a lot different and reduce utility so as not to cannibalise 3 and y sales

I agree that it'll be quite wide for the segment but using the existing castings means that the scope for slimming it down is probably no more than 5cm or so. Legroom in the 3/Y is pretty generous so there's plenty of scope to shorten that section as well as chopping a bit off the overhangs. Load space should be decent as it'll be a hatchback. The motor will probably be the 3D3 front one from the 3/Y LR... 185bhp. With 5 miles/kWh a real world range would be 275 miles from a 55kWh LMFP CATL battery.

I'd also expect to see a premium option pack with things like seat heating, audio upgrade, powered tailgate etc. It's unlikely Tesla will offer individual options because they said sometime ago that it makes production unnecessarily complicated & therefore more expensive.

Thinking about it are most / all the WV ID cars built on the same platform (plus of course a whole bunch that are badged skoda/audi/cupra)?  Tesla have obviously not exploited the 3 platform to nearly the same extent. (They could also have done more with the S/X platform)

The S/X platform is fairly conventional so that means 'expensive' by Tesla's standards. The 3 started out with a conventional platform but it's now not only a new vehicle but an entirely new manufacturing concept - front & rear castings plus a passenger cell with the structural battery pack. These 3 sections have excellent torsional rigidity  reducing the amount of structural limitations on the overall body shape.

Tesla are clearly driven to make their vehicles as efficient as possible - low weight & drag are key to being able to use much smaller battery packs than their competitors for a given range. The reason for there only being 2 variations could be that the 3 & Y are the culmination of everything they've learnt about efficiency & any other design path would be inferior?

Which would e fine if all cars were bought by engineers who appreciated the purity of design....

1961Nick

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

If the Model 2 is going down the same assembly line as the 3/Y it will almost certainly use the existing mega castings possibly with minor modifications to reduce the overhangs. The central section is where the major difference will be & that will be unique to the Model 2 as less space will be needed for the smaller battery.

I think we are agreeing, which ends up with a vehicle slightly wider than typical for that size class but probably cheaper than making a narrower vehicle.  Thing is the opportunity cost of using under utilised existing lines is minimal so in the short term clever accounting can make the vehicle a lot cheaper for that reason due to the capex saved.

Presumably they will need to make it look a lot different and reduce utility so as not to cannibalise 3 and y sales

I agree that it'll be quite wide for the segment but using the existing castings means that the scope for slimming it down is probably no more than 5cm or so. Legroom in the 3/Y is pretty generous so there's plenty of scope to shorten that section as well as chopping a bit off the overhangs. Load space should be decent as it'll be a hatchback. The motor will probably be the 3D3 front one from the 3/Y LR... 185bhp. With 5 miles/kWh a real world range would be 275 miles from a 55kWh LMFP CATL battery.

I'd also expect to see a premium option pack with things like seat heating, audio upgrade, powered tailgate etc. It's unlikely Tesla will offer individual options because they said sometime ago that it makes production unnecessarily complicated & therefore more expensive.

Thinking about it are most / all the WV ID cars built on the same platform (plus of course a whole bunch that are badged skoda/audi/cupra)?  Tesla have obviously not exploited the 3 platform to nearly the same extent. (They could also have done more with the S/X platform)

The S/X platform is fairly conventional so that means 'expensive' by Tesla's standards. The 3 started out with a conventional platform but it's now not only a new vehicle but an entirely new manufacturing concept - front & rear castings plus a passenger cell with the structural battery pack. These 3 sections have excellent torsional rigidity  reducing the amount of structural limitations on the overall body shape.

Tesla are clearly driven to make their vehicles as efficient as possible - low weight & drag are key to being able to use much smaller battery packs than their competitors for a given range. The reason for there only being 2 variations could be that the 3 & Y are the culmination of everything they've learnt about efficiency & any other design path would be inferior?

Which would e fine if all cars were bought by engineers who appreciated the purity of design....

It was fine while ever they could sell more vehicles than they could make. The drop in sales of the 3/Y looks as if it's made them realise they need more models & fast. They've realised they haven't got the time to do a Model 2 from scratch so it's going to be more of a Model 2.5.

JKenH

The heavy discounting of some EV models is taking its toll. Toyota has had a stellar year to date with new BZ4X sales ( 6th best selling EV only just behind the TM3 and beating all Kia and Hyundai models) but I suspect this has been due to heavy discounting as the BZ4X has suffered the worst fall in used values among EVs over the last month. 

Used car values decline with electric vehicles suffering largest fall

BEVs saw the largest average decline, dropping by 3.7%, around £780 on average, compared to petrol at 1% or £200 and diesel at 1.9% or £380.

It is the largest BEV value drop since June of last year. Models that have seen notable drops in value include the Toyota BZ4X (12.5%/£2,800), Nissan Leaf (8.5%/£800), Polestar 2 (7%/£1,300), Ford Mustang Mach-E (5.5%/£1,225) and Volkswagen ID.3 (5%/£650).

However, the Honda e, Lexus UX, and Seat MII all remained level, while the Mini Cooper (1%/£100) and Cupra Born (2.1%/£300) experienced an increase in value.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/used-car-values-decline-with-electric-vehicles-suffering-largest-fall

JKenH

So, one of the leading YouTube anti EVers has come clean, at last. 

https://youtu.be/a0ID3EcUzTc?si=gKGztLZVRyMyR5yH