EV Discussion thread

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Magnitio said:

It used to be that the complaint was needing to drive 200 miles without stopping. Now that there are plenty of EV's capable of that range, it's changed to driving 400 miles without stopping. Over the past 20 years I've driven about 400,000 miles. It's very rare that I have driven over 200 miles in a single journey without stopping, maybe 20 times.

I actually have the opposite "problem".
When I purchased my TM3, the price included 6,000 miles free supercharging. 
In 3/4 year I have only charged away from home 4 times, at least one of which was because I purposefully did not charge before departure as I knew there was a nice supercharger station at a convenient place for my return journey so I could make use of that, the free miles and the lunch-stop as a package.
I now have 5,459 miles of free supercharging to try to use up within the remaining three months before it expires.  My challenge is managing my car use to be able to use the supercharger free miles.  I doubt I will get to use all the miles before they expire.

Fate decided to have fun with me too, when we got the TM3 back in 2020 with 5,000 miles of free charging. Covid restrictions meant we weren't allowed to drive far, then shortly after the time period expired, Tesla opened the Cardiff Tesla service and SC location, which we could have easily used to charge the car throughout the 6 month period. 

And a forum friend who's referral I'd used got credited with the free 1,000 miles about 3 days after getting home from his trip to Southern France.

Some you lose, some you draw!

JKenH

In the same edition of WhatCar I quoted earlier there was an article on servicing EVs which included this table of comparative costs for 3 popular cars.



Suggestion about What Car? May 2024 page 69
https://go.readly.com/magazines/532c31a001704d0ca7000096/66163d621b243968f171da33/69

Edit: those are estimated costs from CAP HPI for 3 years, 30,000 miles.

1961Nick

Grumpy_chap said:

Magnitio said:

It used to be that the complaint was needing to drive 200 miles without stopping. Now that there are plenty of EV's capable of that range, it's changed to driving 400 miles without stopping. Over the past 20 years I've driven about 400,000 miles. It's very rare that I have driven over 200 miles in a single journey without stopping, maybe 20 times.

I actually have the opposite "problem".
When I purchased my TM3, the price included 6,000 miles free supercharging. 
In 3/4 year I have only charged away from home 4 times, at least one of which was because I purposefully did not charge before departure as I knew there was a nice supercharger station at a convenient place for my return journey so I could make use of that, the free miles and the lunch-stop as a package.
I now have 5,459 miles of free supercharging to try to use up within the remaining three months before it expires.  My challenge is managing my car use to be able to use the supercharger free miles.  I doubt I will get to use all the miles before they expire.

Don't hold your breath because mine's done 33,000 miles & it's only had one public charge & that was because it was free. 

1961Nick

JKenH said:

In the same edition of WhatCar I quoted earlier there was an article on servicing EVs which included this table of comparative costs for 3 popular cars.



Suggestion about What Car? May 2024 page 69
https://go.readly.com/magazines/532c31a001704d0ca7000096/66163d621b243968f171da33/69

Edit: those are estimated costs from CAP HPI for 3 years, 30,000 miles.

Tesla Model 3 cost of servicing 3 years & 30.0000 miles: £0

(I did the brake fluid check myself & it was <0.3%)

michaels

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

It'll take several years for the public to change it's perception that a BEV will only do 100 miles on a charge, is likely to burst into flames & will need a new £15K battery every 50,000 miles. 

I doubt if that perception is as widespread as has been made out. It’s a myth that is being perpetuated and peddled as an excuse for the poor sales of EVs largely by EV YouTubers and members of EV communities who are generally intolerant to the idea that someone can logically decide that an EV isn’t the best car for them. Generally you will find in most discussions it is the EV owners/promoters who bring this up not those arguing against EVs. 

Try reading the comments section on any DT article about EVs. This is a socioeconomic group that can afford an EV & probably have off street parking, but their hatred of EVs is irrational.

There is a growing tendency among groups of EV owners on social media to label anyone who doesn’t subscribe to the view that EVs are the only rational option as being “EV haters”. What appears to be happening is that EV owners are so committed to EVs that they cannot understand why any one could possibly have a negative view of them, hence, the only possible explanation is irrational hatred. In fact, whatever hatred there may be seems to be coming from the EV community rather than being directed at it. 

This seems to have become more of a problem once EV sales started levelling off. It’s a combination of denial and paranoia in parts of the EV community . All this talk of FUD and misinformation being behind the fall off in sales such that Quentin Wilson went crying to the government. Everyone is picking on us and trying to derail the just cause we are fighting for - because they hate EVs. 

No, the hype about EVs had just got too far ahead of itself, and reality has yet to catch up with expectations. It seems though when someone points out the reality, practically the whole EV community gets upset and starts calling names. 

So do you actually believe that BEV sales to company car fleets are stalling because of a “perception that a BEV will only do 100 miles on a charge, is likely to burst into flames & will need a new £15K battery every 50,000 miles” . No, of course not, but it’s a useful tactic to distract us from why sales are flat lining.

The marketing hype surrounding EVs has got too far ahead of common sense imo. There are enough people out there for whom an EV would be a better choice than an ICEV - but conversely there are also plenty for whom an EV would be a terrible choice. The point I was making about the DT comments, was that the majority of contributors have a pathological hatred for EVs & anyone who owns one. That seems irrational especially from a group of society that could probably afford an EV easier than most. I have friends that I consider to be intelligent that wouldn't own an EV because of the fire risk... they drive a diesel BMW instead which is one of the cars most likely to catch fire! The reason they made that decision is because the media reports every EV fire but only covers ICEV fires when it causes a long stay airport car park to partially collapse.

As for sales to company car fleets stalling... maybe all the low hanging SalSac fruit has been taken? A pause in the adoption of EVs might not be a bad thing as it'll give the charging network & DNOs time to catch up. 

Who is an ice a better choice for? Someone with a low life expectancy with no offspring? Everyone else needs to think what the trade of is between their convenience and having a planet that can support a comfortable existence for the remainder of their life.

3 and a half months into 24 and it looks like we have seen a climate step change. I would not like to speculate on the consequences.

1961Nick

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

It'll take several years for the public to change it's perception that a BEV will only do 100 miles on a charge, is likely to burst into flames & will need a new £15K battery every 50,000 miles. 

I doubt if that perception is as widespread as has been made out. It’s a myth that is being perpetuated and peddled as an excuse for the poor sales of EVs largely by EV YouTubers and members of EV communities who are generally intolerant to the idea that someone can logically decide that an EV isn’t the best car for them. Generally you will find in most discussions it is the EV owners/promoters who bring this up not those arguing against EVs. 

Try reading the comments section on any DT article about EVs. This is a socioeconomic group that can afford an EV & probably have off street parking, but their hatred of EVs is irrational.

There is a growing tendency among groups of EV owners on social media to label anyone who doesn’t subscribe to the view that EVs are the only rational option as being “EV haters”. What appears to be happening is that EV owners are so committed to EVs that they cannot understand why any one could possibly have a negative view of them, hence, the only possible explanation is irrational hatred. In fact, whatever hatred there may be seems to be coming from the EV community rather than being directed at it. 

This seems to have become more of a problem once EV sales started levelling off. It’s a combination of denial and paranoia in parts of the EV community . All this talk of FUD and misinformation being behind the fall off in sales such that Quentin Wilson went crying to the government. Everyone is picking on us and trying to derail the just cause we are fighting for - because they hate EVs. 

No, the hype about EVs had just got too far ahead of itself, and reality has yet to catch up with expectations. It seems though when someone points out the reality, practically the whole EV community gets upset and starts calling names. 

So do you actually believe that BEV sales to company car fleets are stalling because of a “perception that a BEV will only do 100 miles on a charge, is likely to burst into flames & will need a new £15K battery every 50,000 miles” . No, of course not, but it’s a useful tactic to distract us from why sales are flat lining.

The marketing hype surrounding EVs has got too far ahead of common sense imo. There are enough people out there for whom an EV would be a better choice than an ICEV - but conversely there are also plenty for whom an EV would be a terrible choice. The point I was making about the DT comments, was that the majority of contributors have a pathological hatred for EVs & anyone who owns one. That seems irrational especially from a group of society that could probably afford an EV easier than most. I have friends that I consider to be intelligent that wouldn't own an EV because of the fire risk... they drive a diesel BMW instead which is one of the cars most likely to catch fire! The reason they made that decision is because the media reports every EV fire but only covers ICEV fires when it causes a long stay airport car park to partially collapse.

As for sales to company car fleets stalling... maybe all the low hanging SalSac fruit has been taken? A pause in the adoption of EVs might not be a bad thing as it'll give the charging network & DNOs time to catch up. 

Who is an ice a better choice for? Someone with a low life expectancy with no offspring? Everyone else needs to think what the trade of is between their convenience and having a planet that can support a comfortable existence for the remainder of their life.

3 and a half months into 24 and it looks like we have seen a climate step change. I would not like to speculate on the consequences.

That's an easy one... anyone without off street parking. 

Solarchaser

JKenH said:

MacPingu1986 said:

There are absolutely *tonnes* of "EVs are to blame" articles & clickbait in the right wing press & media.

Obviously just anecdotal but in the small office I work in - the person who bangs on about EVs the most by far is a colleague who doesn't own one, doesn't know much about them, doesn't want one, but constantly repeating the latest Daily Mail rant against them to the rest of the office. 

Going back to the ability to drive 400 miles without re-fueling... OK, sure - if you are in the *very* tiny percentage of the population where this is important, but journeys of this length are *very* rare. DfT stats show us the average UK driver only drives a journey above 200 miles once every couple of years (and as repeatedly noted its advisable to take breaks on a journey of that length regardless)

I don’t have any real issues with current EVs, (except for range) but I do with the charging network. You probably weren’t around a couple of years ago when I moaned constantly about issues I encountered but the response on here was that it was my fault that I was having problems (not the charging network) and I suspect that is the attitude that charge point operators take. Broken, out of service chargers were the bane of my life but the networks operated as though they never had to use them themselves. I voted with my feet. 

Why do you think BEV sales are flatlining? Is it the bloke in your office and thousands like him who read the Daily Mail that are the problem or is there perhaps another reason? 

I'm not sure that's an accurate depiction of events, certainly not from everyone. 
I certainly pointed out more than once that you being in NE Englandshire was part of your issue as at that point it had the worst penetration of chargers in the whole UK, contributing to your charging issues.
I probably suggested that knowing this, you should plan your routes and charging stops more thoroughly. 
The smaller battery car plus long journeys fairly often wasn't a good combo either, and certainly a Tesla with it's charging network would have helped, but you had what you had, which is fair enough.

I had/ have a 24kwh leaf and never ran out of charge or had real charging issues because chargeplace Scotland was everything on one card and a plethora of chargers to choose from.

I don't see anyone questioning why my old C class had about 700 mile real range, that's was totally unnecessary right?

My sister drives a petrol nissan juke, it does 300 miles on a full tank, it's certainly not the case that every journey I did 700 miles in the c class, nor every time, she does 300.

The 3LR does 300 miles if I really try, and if I go to Newcastle or Aberdeen I need that for the round trip.

Most of my journeys are not 300 miles though.

Why are EV sales flatlining, a multitude of reasons, certainly range anxiety for many, including my sister who as I said already can only do 300 miles in her juke, but it's not just that, it's partly that thing you have been banging on about for years (which does finally appear to be getting addressed now) the multitude of chargers which are members only of one app type and lack of pay by card options.
As well you have the whole mind shift needed for how it works, mpg is prolific and well understood,  kwh is not so, and certainly wh/mile is not.

Early adopters took the challenge, ev optimists have started to move over, but.... EVs are still more expensive up front than their Fossil burning equivalents, and they are unfamiliar etc etc.
Fud is still a problem.
I'm regularly asked how often I've run out of charge and is it right that it takes a full day to charge the car, or that you need to stop for 4 hours in the middle of a journey. And I do mean regularly asked.

The government u turns or delays in their targets have left manufacturers a little adrift too.
A couple of years ago there was a hard charge to EVs, and so friends of mine who develop and test engines for UK companies were being paid off, now with the gov u turn /delays, their are once again a plethora of jobs for them, so the manufacturers have been cheesed off with the UK change of stance.

Mostly though, folk don't like change, and if they feel like they are being forced to change, they rail against it, and so will latch onto any article etc that enforces their point of view, and thats where your right wind press comes to the aid of those people and provides plenty of articles to oblige.

Grumpy_chap

Solarchaser said:

I certainly pointed out more than once that you being in NE Englandshire was part of your issue as at that point it had the worst penetration of chargers in the whole UK, contributing to your charging issues.
I probably suggested that knowing this, you should plan your routes and charging stops more thoroughly. 
The smaller battery car plus long journeys fairly often wasn't a good combo either,

That sounds very much like victim blaming.

The issue is, this limitation on choice of car or only covering some parts of the country is an absurd type of restriction to have.

silverwhistle

There's definitely a fair bit of FUD around but fortunately, although I don't have a particularly affluent set of friends they are at least non-Daily Mail/Telegraph readers, so I don't have to waste my time battling those sorts of views.

My next door neighbours have a usage case which would really save them money on their commutes, and I've pointed out that second hand prices have stabilised and range of models has really increased but they are currently taking the very reasonable view that they will run their oldest car into the ground before replacing.

In the meantime I've undertaken a very well timed move to Agile so 300 miles or so of very cheap fuelling over the last week. I joked to a friend that I would pick up something from the wholesaler for her and deliver it to site just for the electric cost but, hang on, my OHME app says it's -1.8p a mile! From a personal point of view the 3.23p per kWh average on Agile on my last bill won't last if there are too many adopters. Far better for them to carry on moaning about fuel costs.

MeteredOut

Grumpy_chap said:

Solarchaser said:

I certainly pointed out more than once that you being in NE Englandshire was part of your issue as at that point it had the worst penetration of chargers in the whole UK, contributing to your charging issues.
I probably suggested that knowing this, you should plan your routes and charging stops more thoroughly. 
The smaller battery car plus long journeys fairly often wasn't a good combo either,

That sounds very much like victim blaming.

The issue is, this limitation on choice of car or only covering some parts of the country is an absurd type of restriction to have.

I don't think we should discount simplicity either. No, not the ICE drivers but with an ICE car, you simply drive up and fill up. With an EV, even if there are plenty of chargers available to you locally, you still need to know which platform it is on and ensure you have the appropriate app (or at least know it takes contactless).

Same for price - with an ICE, you know you'll be ripped off a little if you go to one just off a motorway, but the difference between that and a local supermarket is perhaps 10-20%. With public EV chargers, we have rates from 15p/kWh all the way to 92p/kWh locally.