EV Discussion thread

Martyn1981

MacPingu1986 said:

There are absolutely *tonnes* of "EVs are to blame" articles & clickbait in the right wing press & media.

Obviously just anecdotal but in the small office I work in - the person who bangs on about EVs the most by far is a colleague who doesn't own one, doesn't know much about them, doesn't want one, but constantly repeating the latest Daily Mail rant against them to the rest of the office. 

Going back to the ability to drive 400 miles without re-fueling... OK, sure - if you are in the *very* tiny percentage of the population where this is important, but journeys of this length are *very* rare. DfT stats show us the average UK driver only drives a journey above 200 miles once every couple of years (and as repeatedly noted its advisable to take breaks on a journey of that length regardless)

Yeah, it was quite sad (and embarassing) to view press and Youtube news sites all over the World last year commenting on how much anti-EV info was being pushed by the UK press. Hopefully that was just a clickbait win, and will fade now (or soon). I recall an article, I think posted on the BEV news thread, and I think it was Michaels who warned about the comments being really bad.

What shocked me was a comment claiming (as many do) that the grid simply won't be able to cope. It had over 100 upvotes and no downvotes. Someone replied, quite politely, simply posting a link to the National Grid site, where they say that EV's don't raise any concerns. I think they even mentioned that the impact on the peak demand period might be +10%, but that the UK's peak had dropped ~12% over the last decade.

Anyways ...... that post providing a useful link, got no upticks, and over 30 downticks ..... for providing the information, from the NG, in response to a claim about how the grid would (or wouldn't) cope. It stuck with me, because I'm the sort of person who always thinks people want to know the facts and learn how things are progressing, whereas I've slowly learnt that many of these negative people just want to keep moaning. 


But, on better news, I think, regarding your 400 mile comment. A thought struck me recently about range. Wifey had been chatting about plans to visit a friend in Scotland. The trip is a bit under 500 miles, with a Tesla supercharger about 50 miles from here destination. She entered criteria, including arriving with about 80% charge (to drive around when she gets there). The planner advised a mid way stop, then filling up at that 'last' SC station.

Both Wifey and I, both said 'that's too long a drive', with regard to the two long legs of about 230 + 220 miles (or something like that). Wifey changed a few parameters, and aimed for a drive of around 150 miles with a charge and pee break. Then the same again(ish) with a long stay for lunch, even if she has to move the BEV to avoid idling fees, or just bump it up to whatever charge level keeps it sipping away. Then another 150(ish) mile leg to the 'last' SC.

Obviously this is just our thoughts, but when it dawned on me, I mentioned to Wifey that BEV's (some BEV's) now have ranges that can exceed what we really want to drive pleasurably. So they've sorta arrived already at a key milestone, for many folk (like us), and will only get better going forward.


Speaking of ranges, just some recent news, Tesla is now offering a long range version, of the RWD Model Y. Our AWD LR car can do about 300 miles, if driven very carefully, with a solid 250 miles. But the new model has a WLTP range of ~370 miles, so a solid(ish) 325 miles should be doable in good conditions. It's coming out of Germany I think, so available in most of Europe, but not the UK, However, Australia is getting it too, so presumably a RHD version is going to be built in China.

Amazing how these ranges keep going up, and of course not just tesla, but all manufacturers.

JKenH

MacPingu1986 said:

There are absolutely *tonnes* of "EVs are to blame" articles & clickbait in the right wing press & media.

Obviously just anecdotal but in the small office I work in - the person who bangs on about EVs the most by far is a colleague who doesn't own one, doesn't know much about them, doesn't want one, but constantly repeating the latest Daily Mail rant against them to the rest of the office. 

Going back to the ability to drive 400 miles without re-fueling... OK, sure - if you are in the *very* tiny percentage of the population where this is important, but journeys of this length are *very* rare. DfT stats show us the average UK driver only drives a journey above 200 miles once every couple of years (and as repeatedly noted its advisable to take breaks on a journey of that length regardless)

And the EV YouTubers also regularly use click bait anti EV titles.

DfT stats show us the average UK driver only drives a journey above 200 miles once every couple of years (and as repeatedly noted it’s advisable to take breaks on a journey of that length regardless).

In that case, when the vast majority of EVs claim to be able to cover that range, why do so many EV drivers, including those on this board, waste money on the bigger battery (e.g. Tesla LR) variants? 

As for my Wales trip, I arrived at the cemetery just in time, then drove to the reception at a hotel in the middle of Oswestry. Neither location had chargers so I could either have parked some distance from the hotel to charge or stopped off on the way home - both of which involved a degree of inconvenience. 

Being able to drive over 400 miles on a tank is either something you value or don’t. I do, but I accept that others don’t or, perhaps, even less EVs would be sold. It seems you don’t but does that mean others who are holding off buying an EV don’t as well? Or if they do are they wrong? 

It seems many EV manufacturers and charging network operators believe that what they value is important and what others may value should be ignored but that is part of the whole problem. 

ICE cars have been developed and refined over 125 years to give the buyer what they want or they have failed commercially. EVs are not at that stage yet - it is put up with what we give you and don’t moan much like Henry Ford and his black model T. Whether this approach will succeed in the long run remains to be seen. Tesla have taken  this attitude to the extreme deleting parking sensors, gear selector, indicator stalks and glove box buttons etc. because it makes a car cheaper to manufacture. That was fine as long as they had no competition but perhaps the tide is turning against them and they are now, despite having the best overall value for money package, losing business to the competition. Little things on their own but they add up. 

I don’t have any real issues with current EVs, (except for range) but I do with the charging network. You probably weren’t around a couple of years ago when I moaned constantly about issues I encountered but the response on here was that it was my fault that I was having problems (not the charging network) and I suspect that is the attitude that charge point operators take. Broken, out of service chargers were the bane of my life but the networks operated as though they never had to use them themselves. I voted with my feet. 

Why do you think BEV sales are flatlining? Is it the bloke in your office and thousands like him who read the Daily Mail that are the problem or is there perhaps another reason? 

JKenH

Martyn1981 said:

MacPingu1986 said:

There are absolutely *tonnes* of "EVs are to blame" articles & clickbait in the right wing press & media.

Obviously just anecdotal but in the small office I work in - the person who bangs on about EVs the most by far is a colleague who doesn't own one, doesn't know much about them, doesn't want one, but constantly repeating the latest Daily Mail rant against them to the rest of the office. 

Going back to the ability to drive 400 miles without re-fueling... OK, sure - if you are in the *very* tiny percentage of the population where this is important, but journeys of this length are *very* rare. DfT stats show us the average UK driver only drives a journey above 200 miles once every couple of years (and as repeatedly noted its advisable to take breaks on a journey of that length regardless)

Yeah, it was quite sad (and embarassing) to view press and Youtube news sites all over the World last year commenting on how much anti-EV info was being pushed by the UK press. Hopefully that was just a clickbait win, and will fade now (or soon). I recall an article, I think posted on the BEV news thread, and I think it was Michaels who warned about the comments being really bad.

What shocked me was a comment claiming (as many do) that the grid simply won't be able to cope. It had over 100 upvotes and no downvotes. Someone replied, quite politely, simply posting a link to the National Grid site, where they say that EV's don't raise any concerns. I think they even mentioned that the impact on the peak demand period might be +10%, but that the UK's peak had dropped ~12% over the last decade.

Anyways ...... that post providing a useful link, got no upticks, and over 30 downticks ..... for providing the information, from the NG, in response to a claim about how the grid would (or wouldn't) cope. It stuck with me, because I'm the sort of person who always thinks people want to know the facts and learn how things are progressing, whereas I've slowly learnt that many of these negative people just want to keep moaning. 


But, on better news, I think, regarding your 400 mile comment. A thought struck me recently about range. Wifey had been chatting about plans to visit a friend in Scotland. The trip is a bit under 500 miles, with a Tesla supercharger about 50 miles from here destination. She entered criteria, including arriving with about 80% charge (to drive around when she gets there). The planner advised a mid way stop, then filling up at that 'last' SC station.

Both Wifey and I, both said 'that's too long a drive', with regard to the two long legs of about 230 + 220 miles (or something like that). Wifey changed a few parameters, and aimed for a drive of around 150 miles with a charge and pee break. Then the same again(ish) with a long stay for lunch, even if she has to move the BEV to avoid idling fees, or just bump it up to whatever charge level keeps it sipping away. Then another 150(ish) mile leg to the 'last' SC.

Obviously this is just our thoughts, but when it dawned on me, I mentioned to Wifey that BEV's (some BEV's) now have ranges that can exceed what we really want to drive pleasurably. So they've sorta arrived already at a key milestone, for many folk (like us), and will only get better going forward.


Speaking of ranges, just some recent news, Tesla is now offering a long range version, of the RWD Model Y. Our AWD LR car can do about 300 miles, if driven very carefully, with a solid 250 miles. But the new model has a WLTP range of ~370 miles, so a solid(ish) 325 miles should be doable in good conditions. It's coming out of Germany I think, so available in most of Europe, but not the UK, However, Australia is getting it too, so presumably a RHD version is going to be built in China.

Amazing how these ranges keep going up, and of course not just tesla, but all manufacturers.

But, Mart, why do you need a long range Tesla if you are only going to drive 150 miles in a stint? If the Tesla SUC is so good, (and despite no first hand experience, I think it probably is) wouldn’t a standard range be just as good. A lot cheaper for you to buy, more economical and much kinder to the planet?

Edit: You raise a valid point about having to break off your lunch to go move the car. That would be a real pain (but perhaps not in France😉)

Magnitio

It used to be that the complaint was needing to drive 200 miles without stopping. Now that there are plenty of EV's capable of that range, it's changed to driving 400 miles without stopping. Over the past 20 years I've driven about 400,000 miles. It's very rare that I have driven over 200 miles in a single journey without stopping, maybe 20 times.

If you are pro-EV, you notice the huge amount of anti-EV articles in the press and comments on social media. If you are anti-EV, it seems that you notice the EVangelists banging on about how good they are.

JKenH

More bad news on BEV depreciation, I am afraid. Whatcar? has published an article listing the top ten and the bottom ten cars (new price up to £50k) for depreciation. Only two BEVs make the top ten list of least depreciating cars: at second is the Renault Scenic E-Tech with a retained value of 60.7% and at number 10 was the Toyota BZ4X retaining 55.5%. BEVs filled 9 of the bottom 10 places, the only ICE car to make an appearance being one of my favourites the Mazda MX5. I won’t list them all but the worst was (no surprises) the Vauxhall Mokka Electric retaining just 27.9% of list price at 3 years. 

It would be different if  the retained value was judged against the heavily discounted price at which these cars can be bought but this unfortunately has been the system for many years. As I’ve said before, the manufacturers are doing themselves no favours with these ridiculously high list prices as some people may look no further than the headline price and walk away saying EVs are just too expensive. 

Suggestion about What Car? May 2024 page 50
https://go.readly.com/magazines/532c31a001704d0ca7000096/66163d621b243968f171da33/50

JKenH

Magnitio said:

If you are pro-EV, you notice the huge amount of anti-EV articles in the press and comments on social media. If you are anti-EV, it seems that you notice the EVangelists banging on about how good they are.

Exactly. Well said. 

JKenH

Magnitio said:

It used to be that the complaint was needing to drive 200 miles without stopping. Now that there are plenty of EV's capable of that range, it's changed to driving 400 miles without stopping. Over the past 20 years I've driven about 400,000 miles. It's very rare that I have driven over 200 miles in a single journey without stopping, maybe 20 times.

It’s not that I want to drive 400 miles without stopping. I don’t. What I want is the ability to choose when and where I stop and not have to go out of my way to look for a charger. In December 2022 (in temperatures well below zero I drive to Surrey for a funeral (yes they are a big part of my life now). IIRC it was 195 miles each way. Apart from having to pull over in lay-bys to pour water on the windscreen because it was so cold the washers were frozen, I didn’t need to stop. There simply would have been nowhere convenient to charge while I was at the funeral or reception. I didn’t need any toilet or refreshments on the way and so and stop would have been wasted time. 

It’s not so much the time wasted actually charging that used to bug me but rather would there be a working charger available. On one airport trip I had 3 faulty chargers at two different locations before I moved on to a third location/fourth charger and was successful. It took the best part of an hour to get a 20 minute charge. The next time I did that airport trip I went straight to the charger that worked and it was busy. I waited as the users were only going to be 15 minutes. When they finished, I plugged in - wouldn’t charge! I had to wait for another charger to come free. 

Now, that was back in 2022 and I am told things have moved on but I haven’t and for me the public charging network is a no go area. My son who has had electric cars for over 4 years feels the same and uses the family diesel for anywhere outside the car’s range. 

So that’s why I really like my Golf which will do around 500 miles on a tank whatever the weather conditions at motorway speeds. And if I were to need fuel I know it is a no hassle situation. 

MacPingu1986

JenKh  - All I can say is that in my experience - in the mass media there is *much* more misinformation (if not outright lies about grid capacity, claims exaggerating EV pollution or fire risk) spread about EV's than vice-versa. Are there occasional Pro-EV YouTubers putting out videos with provocative titles? Sure. But it's nowhere near on the same level. I don't know why BEV sales are flatlining, I do think that mis-information  being spread in the popular media is playing *some* part.

Valuing range isn't a binary decision, it's not a yes or a no, but about how that fits into the whole offering. People make decisions that aren't entirely rational about products all the time - we're human, lots of psychology as to why certain events stick in the mind and some things don't and how we're very poor as a species at assessing risk/probability.

Which brings us back to... the ability to drive 200 miles without refuelling on that occasional journey every 4 years is a *very* niche benefit, whereas the wider benefits of EVs (particularly the environmental benefits) are useful on almost every drive.

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

It'll take several years for the public to change it's perception that a BEV will only do 100 miles on a charge, is likely to burst into flames & will need a new £15K battery every 50,000 miles. 

I doubt if that perception is as widespread as has been made out. It’s a myth that is being perpetuated and peddled as an excuse for the poor sales of EVs largely by EV YouTubers and members of EV communities who are generally intolerant to the idea that someone can logically decide that an EV isn’t the best car for them. Generally you will find in most discussions it is the EV owners/promoters who bring this up not those arguing against EVs. 

Try reading the comments section on any DT article about EVs. This is a socioeconomic group that can afford an EV & probably have off street parking, but their hatred of EVs is irrational.

There is a growing tendency among groups of EV owners on social media to label anyone who doesn’t subscribe to the view that EVs are the only rational option as being “EV haters”. What appears to be happening is that EV owners are so committed to EVs that they cannot understand why any one could possibly have a negative view of them, hence, the only possible explanation is irrational hatred. In fact, whatever hatred there may be seems to be coming from the EV community rather than being directed at it. 

This seems to have become more of a problem once EV sales started levelling off. It’s a combination of denial and paranoia in parts of the EV community . All this talk of FUD and misinformation being behind the fall off in sales such that Quentin Wilson went crying to the government. Everyone is picking on us and trying to derail the just cause we are fighting for - because they hate EVs. 

No, the hype about EVs had just got too far ahead of itself, and reality has yet to catch up with expectations. It seems though when someone points out the reality, practically the whole EV community gets upset and starts calling names. 

So do you actually believe that BEV sales to company car fleets are stalling because of a “perception that a BEV will only do 100 miles on a charge, is likely to burst into flames & will need a new £15K battery every 50,000 miles” . No, of course not, but it’s a useful tactic to distract us from why sales are flat lining.

The marketing hype surrounding EVs has got too far ahead of common sense imo. There are enough people out there for whom an EV would be a better choice than an ICEV - but conversely there are also plenty for whom an EV would be a terrible choice. The point I was making about the DT comments, was that the majority of contributors have a pathological hatred for EVs & anyone who owns one. That seems irrational especially from a group of society that could probably afford an EV easier than most. I have friends that I consider to be intelligent that wouldn't own an EV because of the fire risk... they drive a diesel BMW instead which is one of the cars most likely to catch fire! The reason they made that decision is because the media reports every EV fire but only covers ICEV fires when it causes a long stay airport car park to partially collapse.

As for sales to company car fleets stalling... maybe all the low hanging SalSac fruit has been taken? A pause in the adoption of EVs might not be a bad thing as it'll give the charging network & DNOs time to catch up. 

Grumpy_chap

Magnitio said:

It used to be that the complaint was needing to drive 200 miles without stopping. Now that there are plenty of EV's capable of that range, it's changed to driving 400 miles without stopping. Over the past 20 years I've driven about 400,000 miles. It's very rare that I have driven over 200 miles in a single journey without stopping, maybe 20 times.

I actually have the opposite "problem".
When I purchased my TM3, the price included 6,000 miles free supercharging. 
In 3/4 year I have only charged away from home 4 times, at least one of which was because I purposefully did not charge before departure as I knew there was a nice supercharger station at a convenient place for my return journey so I could make use of that, the free miles and the lunch-stop as a package.
I now have 5,459 miles of free supercharging to try to use up within the remaining three months before it expires.  My challenge is managing my car use to be able to use the supercharger free miles.  I doubt I will get to use all the miles before they expire.