EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

The ford focus is 24 years old, yet people still buy them.

I'd be far more comfortable driving the Tesla if he had sold off that part tbh.

Not that I particularly love the head of stelantis or vag or Toyota etc, but Musk is a particularly disagreeable individual imo only of course.

But EV technology is constantly moving forward. Look at what has happened to sales of the Model S/X despite refreshes. Even Model 3 sales are a pale shadow of what they were 2 or 3 years ago. Yes there will be new markets opening up for old models (perhaps Tesla could establish a cheaper brand like Renault did with Dacia) but without new models Tesla’s star will soon be on the wane and I suspect Mr Musk has realised it. 

The mystery is why they are not progressing the Model 2 because that was always the key to progressing beyond 2M units? Tesla have the money, the battery supply chain & the manufacturing expertise to make that car cheaper than anyone else can - especially in Europe. Competition from China would be a bigger problem than envisaged, but the Tesla brand is worth a price premium at the moment & they could be taking advantage of that. Access to the supercharging network also warrants a premium over their rivals. The market for a $25,000 Tesla hatchback must be more than 3/Y/S/X combined but won't be an open goal for too much longer. 

MeteredOut

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Solarchaser said:

The ford focus is 24 years old, yet people still buy them.

I'd be far more comfortable driving the Tesla if he had sold off that part tbh.

Not that I particularly love the head of stelantis or vag or Toyota etc, but Musk is a particularly disagreeable individual imo only of course.

But EV technology is constantly moving forward. Look at what has happened to sales of the Model S/X despite refreshes. Even Model 3 sales are a pale shadow of what they were 2 or 3 years ago. Yes there will be new markets opening up for old models (perhaps Tesla could establish a cheaper brand like Renault did with Dacia) but without new models Tesla’s star will soon be on the wane and I suspect Mr Musk has realised it. 

The mystery is why they are not progressing the Model 2 because that was always the key to progressing beyond 2M units? Tesla have the money, the battery supply chain & the manufacturing expertise to make that car cheaper than anyone else can - especially in Europe. Competition from China would be a bigger problem than envisaged, but the Tesla brand is worth a price premium at the moment & they could be taking advantage of that. Access to the supercharging network also warrants a premium over their rivals. The market for a $25,000 Tesla hatchback must be more than 3/Y/S/X combined but won't be an open goal for too much longer. 

Is it still? Their sales figures/projections might suggest otherwise.

Tesla is turning into a bit of an Apple of the EV world, and polarises opinion (there's quite a bit of anti-Musk sentiment out there) so perhaps they've saturated their fan-boy market? 

Can they keep their models refreshed so that people make repeat purchases? Not every year like Apple can (or have done in the past).

I wonder if Tesla have found they can't make a hatchback that they can viably sell for $25K.

Reed_Richards

MeteredOut said:

..... Has anyone ever filled up with the wrong electric?

I find my car runs just as well on the 7.5p per kWh electric that comes out of my granny charger between midnight and 7 am as it does on the premium grade electricity that comes out of a premium rapid charger and which costs up to 10 times more.  So when I have to use a premium charger it's most definitely the wrong electric.

MeteredOut

Reed_Richards said:

MeteredOut said:

..... Has anyone ever filled up with the wrong electric?

I find my car runs just as well on the 7.5p per kWh electric that comes out of my granny charger between midnight and 7 am as it does on the premium grade electricity that comes out of a premium rapid charger and which costs up to 10 times more.  So when I have to use a premium charger it's most definitely the wrong electric.

Octopus tell me I get 100% green electricity. I am a bit concerned that if some of that non-green electricity accidentally gets mixed in, that it'd lower my miles/kWh, and might even mean more regular servicing required.

JKenH

MeteredOut said:

Reed_Richards said:

MeteredOut said:

..... Has anyone ever filled up with the wrong electric?

I find my car runs just as well on the 7.5p per kWh electric that comes out of my granny charger between midnight and 7 am as it does on the premium grade electricity that comes out of a premium rapid charger and which costs up to 10 times more.  So when I have to use a premium charger it's most definitely the wrong electric.

Octopus tell me I get 100% green electricity. I am a bit concerned that if some of that non-green electricity accidentally gets mixed in, that it'd lower my miles/kWh, and might even mean more regular servicing required.

Go BP or Shell every other fill up and avoid the cheap supermarket electricity. 

Seriously though you will get better m/kWh from a rapid than home charging. Markedly so in a Leaf in winter. 

MeteredOut

JKenH said:

MeteredOut said:

Reed_Richards said:

MeteredOut said:

..... Has anyone ever filled up with the wrong electric?

I find my car runs just as well on the 7.5p per kWh electric that comes out of my granny charger between midnight and 7 am as it does on the premium grade electricity that comes out of a premium rapid charger and which costs up to 10 times more.  So when I have to use a premium charger it's most definitely the wrong electric.

Octopus tell me I get 100% green electricity. I am a bit concerned that if some of that non-green electricity accidentally gets mixed in, that it'd lower my miles/kWh, and might even mean more regular servicing required.

Go BP or Shell every other fill up and avoid the cheap supermarket electricity. 

Seriously though you will get better m/kWh from a rapid than home charging. Markedly so in a Leaf in winter. 

Definitely.

95% of my charging has been at home at  (2.8kW AC at 7.5p/kWh) with the other 5% being at my work (7kW AC at 14p/kWh), and I've measured (or been emailed in the case of charging at work) the kW delivered versus what the kWh the car says it has received (via the EEVEE app, though this is a very blunt % added * battery size calculation).

In the case of charging at home, the losses are around 15-20%, and on the 7kW charger, nearer 10-15%. 

I suspect fast chargers will be under 10%, but at 6-12 times the cost per kWh as charging at home, I'll put up with the losses charging at home.

I do think wonder whether some EV owners who brag about their low cost per mile use actual energy usage (kW delivered to car) rather than the charge the car receives after the inverter has done its thing.

Reed_Richards

I've measured my charging losses at home and I get 90% of what I put in.  I wasn't trying to brag about my low costs per mile, just to complain about the high costs per mile of charging anywhere other than at home at night.

MeteredOut

Reed_Richards said:

I've measured my charging losses at home and I get 90% of what I put in.  I wasn't trying to brag about my low costs per mile, just to complain about the high costs per mile of charging anywhere other than at home at night.

The bragging comment wasn't a dig at anyone on here. You're getting 90% efficiency out of a granny charger? That's good.

So either my granny charger is rubbish (it emits very little heat, so I don't know where the rest of the energy is going) or our cars measure what they receive differently.

How do you measure kWh delivered? Tapo P110 for me.

I've just plugged my car in (at 43% SOC, OH doing a longer journey tomorrow) and Octopus has given us 7.5p all the way through to tomorrow morning.

JKenH

MeteredOut said:

JKenH said:

MeteredOut said:

Reed_Richards said:

MeteredOut said:

..... Has anyone ever filled up with the wrong electric?

I find my car runs just as well on the 7.5p per kWh electric that comes out of my granny charger between midnight and 7 am as it does on the premium grade electricity that comes out of a premium rapid charger and which costs up to 10 times more.  So when I have to use a premium charger it's most definitely the wrong electric.

Octopus tell me I get 100% green electricity. I am a bit concerned that if some of that non-green electricity accidentally gets mixed in, that it'd lower my miles/kWh, and might even mean more regular servicing required.

Go BP or Shell every other fill up and avoid the cheap supermarket electricity. 

Seriously though you will get better m/kWh from a rapid than home charging. Markedly so in a Leaf in winter. 

Definitely.

95% of my charging has been at home at  (2.8kW DC at 7.5p/kWh) with the other 5% being at my work (7kW DC at 14p/kWh), and I've measured (or been emailed in the case of charging at work) the kW delivered versus what the kWh the car says it has received (via the EEVEE app, though this is a very blunt % added * battery size calculation).

In the case of charging at home, the losses are around 15-20%, and on the 7kW charger, nearer 10-15%. 

I suspect fast chargers will be under 10%, but at 6-12 times the cost per kWh as charging at home, I'll put up with the losses charging at home.

I do think wonder whether some EV owners who brag about their low cost per mile use actual energy usage (kW delivered to car) rather than the charge the car receives after the inverter has done its thing.

Yes, I watched a YouTube video from EVM about the cost of owning his TM3 over 4years. He reported that it had averaged 4m/kWh over his ownership and calculated his electricity cost from this without mentioning charging losses or other parasitic losses which aren’t shown on the dashboard. To be fair, he might have included these but just not mentioned them but it wasn’t clear. @Nick1961, on here, has kept a record of the electricity used to charge his M3P over the time he has owned it (I think about 3 years) and worked it out at around 3miles/kwh. I believe @Grumpy_chap is doing the same exercise. I did see a test somewhere reporting a range of accuracy among EVs but as people frequently point out you get that with ICE cars as well. My Golf reads around 3-4% optimistic on mpg. I measured this over 2 consecutive fill ups and 988 miles last year recording 53.5mpg against an indicated 55.3 mpg. 

When you are on a trip it is driving efficiency that matters most and that is what cars try to show. Total kWh to charge is more of an academic exercise to calculate cost for comparison with, say, an ICEv but if you are predominantly home charging on an EV tariff, it’s a bit academic anyway as it probably only makes 0.5p/mile difference at most. 

Edit: although I am digressing slightly I just wanted to point out that the mpg I get from my car is significantly better than the WLTP figure. It is often said that ICE cars never match their official mpg figures. Well, that used to be true under the old NEDC testing regime but WLTP figures are a lot more and in the case of the Golf, at least, are achievable in real world conditions. (See table below from HonestJohn website). My 1.0 TSI Golf is very good. The worst I have ever seen on a tank full is 48 mpg(real) which took in a 390 mile trip in subzero conditions at motorway (including M25) speeds. My long term average is an indicted 56.3 mpg (around 54.5 mpg real).

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/realmpg/volkswagen/golf-estate-2013

Reed_Richards

MeteredOut said:

So either my granny charger is rubbish (it emits very little heat, so I don't know where the rest of the energy is going) or our cars measure what they receive differently.

How do you measure kWh delivered? Tapo P110 for me.

Energy that doesn't charge the battery can only go into heat, either directly or indirectly.  So if you left your car radio on, the radio speaker moves the air and the air movement eventually causes a slight heating.  But this isn't a great example because the power consumed by a car radio is pretty negligible.  If you left your lights on then the light will ultimately get absorbed and cause heating.  Of course you could shine your lights on a photocell and convert back to electricity but you won't ever really do that. 

I also use a Tapo P110 to measure energy delivered.