EV Discussion thread

michaels

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

GC, very interesting. So I'm sorry if this seems pedantic.  I'm only mentioning it so that comparisons can be made more broadly with others / other sources, but shouldn't you be dividing the lost energy by the gross energy figure to get the percentage loss?

Eg  594.44 - 516 = 78.44 / 594.44 = 0.13 x100% = 13% loss
and  39.85 - 37 = 2.85 / 39.85 = 0.07 x 100% = 7% loss

Possibly.
I just did the simple calculation:
594.44 / 516 = 1.152 so 15.2% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car
39.85 / 37 = 1.077 so 7.7% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car

Yours is the inverse calculation.  (516 / 594.44)

EDIT - I agree that my calculation was incorrect.  Thank you for the correction.

I am not sure how particular this needs to be, especially given that the car only reports in complete kWh.  That can have a massive difference in the loss that is recorded.
39.85 kWh from plug and 37.00 kWh into the car (7ish percent loss) is a lot worse than 39.85 kWh from the plug and 37.99 kWh into the car (5ish percent loss).

The important thing to know is that the home charger is more efficient than the granny charger.

It is also why I think longer term miles / kWh is more useful than individual charges.  Any variables (such as weather or vampire losses) are magnified in a single charge cycle but mitigated through the averaging of several cycles.

This is so useful having actual real world data, thank you - the manufacturers should supply data on charge efficiency of their own supplied granny chargers but of course they don't....

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the majority of the losses occur in the AC to DC conversion circuits onboard the car rather than in the “granny charger”. I would imagine it wouldn’t make much difference whether you used Tesla’s supplied charging cable or one from, say, Screwfix. 

Agree but my point being if they sell you a car with a claimed x mils per kwh, that should be kwh form the plug using the charging cable they supply.  When you buy a washing machine the efficiency label is not based on usage after the AC/DC conversion....

1961Nick

michaels said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

GC, very interesting. So I'm sorry if this seems pedantic.  I'm only mentioning it so that comparisons can be made more broadly with others / other sources, but shouldn't you be dividing the lost energy by the gross energy figure to get the percentage loss?

Eg  594.44 - 516 = 78.44 / 594.44 = 0.13 x100% = 13% loss
and  39.85 - 37 = 2.85 / 39.85 = 0.07 x 100% = 7% loss

Possibly.
I just did the simple calculation:
594.44 / 516 = 1.152 so 15.2% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car
39.85 / 37 = 1.077 so 7.7% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car

Yours is the inverse calculation.  (516 / 594.44)

EDIT - I agree that my calculation was incorrect.  Thank you for the correction.

I am not sure how particular this needs to be, especially given that the car only reports in complete kWh.  That can have a massive difference in the loss that is recorded.
39.85 kWh from plug and 37.00 kWh into the car (7ish percent loss) is a lot worse than 39.85 kWh from the plug and 37.99 kWh into the car (5ish percent loss).

The important thing to know is that the home charger is more efficient than the granny charger.

It is also why I think longer term miles / kWh is more useful than individual charges.  Any variables (such as weather or vampire losses) are magnified in a single charge cycle but mitigated through the averaging of several cycles.

This is so useful having actual real world data, thank you - the manufacturers should supply data on charge efficiency of their own supplied granny chargers but of course they don't....

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the majority of the losses occur in the AC to DC conversion circuits onboard the car rather than in the “granny charger”. I would imagine it wouldn’t make much difference whether you used Tesla’s supplied charging cable or one from, say, Screwfix. 

Agree but my point being if they sell you a car with a claimed x mils per kwh, that should be kwh form the plug using the charging cable they supply.  When you buy a washing machine the efficiency label is not based on usage after the AC/DC conversion....

The kWh/mile achieved from the battery is far more important to an EV driver than the figure from the plug. As soon as you unplug the vehicle the only figure that matters is your current consumption as that obviously determines you range & charging strategy.

michaels

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

GC, very interesting. So I'm sorry if this seems pedantic.  I'm only mentioning it so that comparisons can be made more broadly with others / other sources, but shouldn't you be dividing the lost energy by the gross energy figure to get the percentage loss?

Eg  594.44 - 516 = 78.44 / 594.44 = 0.13 x100% = 13% loss
and  39.85 - 37 = 2.85 / 39.85 = 0.07 x 100% = 7% loss

Possibly.
I just did the simple calculation:
594.44 / 516 = 1.152 so 15.2% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car
39.85 / 37 = 1.077 so 7.7% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car

Yours is the inverse calculation.  (516 / 594.44)

EDIT - I agree that my calculation was incorrect.  Thank you for the correction.

I am not sure how particular this needs to be, especially given that the car only reports in complete kWh.  That can have a massive difference in the loss that is recorded.
39.85 kWh from plug and 37.00 kWh into the car (7ish percent loss) is a lot worse than 39.85 kWh from the plug and 37.99 kWh into the car (5ish percent loss).

The important thing to know is that the home charger is more efficient than the granny charger.

It is also why I think longer term miles / kWh is more useful than individual charges.  Any variables (such as weather or vampire losses) are magnified in a single charge cycle but mitigated through the averaging of several cycles.

This is so useful having actual real world data, thank you - the manufacturers should supply data on charge efficiency of their own supplied granny chargers but of course they don't....

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the majority of the losses occur in the AC to DC conversion circuits onboard the car rather than in the “granny charger”. I would imagine it wouldn’t make much difference whether you used Tesla’s supplied charging cable or one from, say, Screwfix. 

Agree but my point being if they sell you a car with a claimed x mils per kwh, that should be kwh form the plug using the charging cable they supply.  When you buy a washing machine the efficiency label is not based on usage after the AC/DC conversion....

The kWh/mile achieved from the battery is far more important to an EV driver than the figure from the plug. As soon as you unplug the vehicle the only figure that matters is your current consumption as that obviously determines you range & charging strategy.

Which is an interesting way of looking at it - for an ICE car you worry about the cost per mile which depends on how much you pay for the fuel that goes in and how many miles you get.  For me the same consideration applies to EVs - perhaps even more so as an EV owner you may also be concerned about the environmental impact.

1961Nick

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

michaels said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Martyn1981 said:

GC, very interesting. So I'm sorry if this seems pedantic.  I'm only mentioning it so that comparisons can be made more broadly with others / other sources, but shouldn't you be dividing the lost energy by the gross energy figure to get the percentage loss?

Eg  594.44 - 516 = 78.44 / 594.44 = 0.13 x100% = 13% loss
and  39.85 - 37 = 2.85 / 39.85 = 0.07 x 100% = 7% loss

Possibly.
I just did the simple calculation:
594.44 / 516 = 1.152 so 15.2% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car
39.85 / 37 = 1.077 so 7.7% of what was drawn from the plug did not make it to the car

Yours is the inverse calculation.  (516 / 594.44)

EDIT - I agree that my calculation was incorrect.  Thank you for the correction.

I am not sure how particular this needs to be, especially given that the car only reports in complete kWh.  That can have a massive difference in the loss that is recorded.
39.85 kWh from plug and 37.00 kWh into the car (7ish percent loss) is a lot worse than 39.85 kWh from the plug and 37.99 kWh into the car (5ish percent loss).

The important thing to know is that the home charger is more efficient than the granny charger.

It is also why I think longer term miles / kWh is more useful than individual charges.  Any variables (such as weather or vampire losses) are magnified in a single charge cycle but mitigated through the averaging of several cycles.

This is so useful having actual real world data, thank you - the manufacturers should supply data on charge efficiency of their own supplied granny chargers but of course they don't....

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the majority of the losses occur in the AC to DC conversion circuits onboard the car rather than in the “granny charger”. I would imagine it wouldn’t make much difference whether you used Tesla’s supplied charging cable or one from, say, Screwfix. 

Agree but my point being if they sell you a car with a claimed x mils per kwh, that should be kwh form the plug using the charging cable they supply.  When you buy a washing machine the efficiency label is not based on usage after the AC/DC conversion....

The kWh/mile achieved from the battery is far more important to an EV driver than the figure from the plug. As soon as you unplug the vehicle the only figure that matters is your current consumption as that obviously determines you range & charging strategy.

Which is an interesting way of looking at it - for an ICE car you worry about the cost per mile which depends on how much you pay for the fuel that goes in and how many miles you get.  For me the same consideration applies to EVs - perhaps even more so as an EV owner you may also be concerned about the environmental impact.

For me the actual cost of driving the car is pretty insignificant. I do track the cost of charging & it's efficiency, but more for interest than anything fiscal.

So far this year the car has done 9654 miles & the (metered) charging cost is just £255... if 10% of that never made it to the battery it's only £25 so irrelevant in the grand scheme. 

JKenH

Half of buyers expect next car to be EV or hybrid

In the six months since March this year, the number of buyers searching online for used PHEVs has increased by 12%, but just 2% for EVs, reflecting the gradual increase in stock being sourced by dealers.

“Our research was conducted just after the government moved the ban of new petrol and diesel sales from 2030 to 2035; despite this one in five buyers expect their next car to be an EV, showing the strength of consumer appetite to transition,” said Lucy Tugby, marketing director of eBay Motors Group.

“PHEVs also have a key role to play as alternatives to pure combustion engine vehicles with buyers, especially when it comes to searching for used models where interest is currently on a par with EVs.

“For dealers this means there are opportunities to engage online with used car buyers seriously considering hybrids and PHEVs as viable alternatives to diesel and petrol when searching for their next car,” said Tugby.

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/half-buyers-expect-next-car-ev-hybrid-08-11-2023

MikeJXE

JKenH said:

Half of buyers expect next car to be EV or hybrid

In the six months since March this year, the number of buyers searching online for used PHEVs has increased by 12%, but just 2% for EVs, reflecting the gradual increase in stock being sourced by dealers.

“Our research was conducted just after the government moved the ban of new petrol and diesel sales from 2030 to 2035; despite this one in five buyers expect their next car to be an EV, showing the strength of consumer appetite to transition,” said Lucy Tugby, marketing director of eBay Motors Group.

“PHEVs also have a key role to play as alternatives to pure combustion engine vehicles with buyers, especially when it comes to searching for used models where interest is currently on a par with EVs.

“For dealers this means there are opportunities to engage online with used car buyers seriously considering hybrids and PHEVs as viable alternatives to diesel and petrol when searching for their next car,” said Tugby.

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/half-buyers-expect-next-car-ev-hybrid-08-11-2023

Could that information be a bit skewed ?

I was browsing around the internet last week looking at EVs so I will probably be added into the mix

I have no intention of buying an EV ever, just taking a look at prices out of interest 

MeteredOut

MikeJXE said:

JKenH said:

Half of buyers expect next car to be EV or hybrid

In the six months since March this year, the number of buyers searching online for used PHEVs has increased by 12%, but just 2% for EVs, reflecting the gradual increase in stock being sourced by dealers.

“Our research was conducted just after the government moved the ban of new petrol and diesel sales from 2030 to 2035; despite this one in five buyers expect their next car to be an EV, showing the strength of consumer appetite to transition,” said Lucy Tugby, marketing director of eBay Motors Group.

“PHEVs also have a key role to play as alternatives to pure combustion engine vehicles with buyers, especially when it comes to searching for used models where interest is currently on a par with EVs.

“For dealers this means there are opportunities to engage online with used car buyers seriously considering hybrids and PHEVs as viable alternatives to diesel and petrol when searching for their next car,” said Tugby.

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/half-buyers-expect-next-car-ev-hybrid-08-11-2023

Could that information be a bit skewed ?

I was browsing around the internet last week looking at EVs so I will probably be added into the mix

I have no intention of buying an EV ever, just taking a look at prices out of interest 

No you weren't, and if you took the time to read the article, you've had seen that.

"...which surveyed the views of over 2,000 decision makers..."

If they took browsing habits into account when doing research, I'd hate to think what headlines we'd be getting   

thevilla

MeteredOut said:

MikeJXE said:

JKenH said:

Half of buyers expect next car to be EV or hybrid

In the six months since March this year, the number of buyers searching online for used PHEVs has increased by 12%, but just 2% for EVs, reflecting the gradual increase in stock being sourced by dealers.

“Our research was conducted just after the government moved the ban of new petrol and diesel sales from 2030 to 2035; despite this one in five buyers expect their next car to be an EV, showing the strength of consumer appetite to transition,” said Lucy Tugby, marketing director of eBay Motors Group.

“PHEVs also have a key role to play as alternatives to pure combustion engine vehicles with buyers, especially when it comes to searching for used models where interest is currently on a par with EVs.

“For dealers this means there are opportunities to engage online with used car buyers seriously considering hybrids and PHEVs as viable alternatives to diesel and petrol when searching for their next car,” said Tugby.

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/half-buyers-expect-next-car-ev-hybrid-08-11-2023

Could that information be a bit skewed ?

I was browsing around the internet last week looking at EVs so I will probably be added into the mix

I have no intention of buying an EV ever, just taking a look at prices out of interest 

No you weren't, and if you took the time to read the article, you've had seen that.

"...which surveyed the views of over 2,000 decision makers..."

If they took browsing habits into account when doing research, I'd hate to think what headlines we'd be getting   

Are you not familiar with the Sun?

JKenH

The content of this post is limited to comply with ForecourtTrader’s copyright policy but a link is provided.

Used EV prices fall dramatically to meet petrol car prices

Falling prices mean that many second-hand EVs are either the same price or almost equal to comparable petrol models.

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/used-ev-prices-fall-dramatically-to-meet-petrol-car-prices/685242.article

Petriix

JKenH said:

The content of this post is limited to comply with ForecourtTrader’s copyright policy but a link is provided.

Used EV prices fall dramatically to meet petrol car prices

Falling prices mean that many second-hand EVs are either the same price or almost equal to comparable petrol models.

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/used-ev-prices-fall-dramatically-to-meet-petrol-car-prices/685242.article

That's spectacularly good news for ordinary drivers, bringing EVs into reach for many more people. Hopefully once we get rid of the climate vandals from government we'll see the return of EV grants coupled with increasingly punitive taxation on the more polluting vehicles.