EV Discussion thread

1961Nick

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Fleet data suggests EV tyres only last 75% of the distance they do on other cars and are more expensive, costing 4.6p per mile compared to 2.1p for petrol and diesel cars.

EV tyres lasting 6,350 miles fewer than petrol or diesel, fleet data shows

Tyres fitted to electric vehicles (EVs) are lasting, on average, 6,350 fewer miles than those fitted to petrol or diesel cars, new fleet data from epyx suggests.

The first tyre change for electric cars takes place at an average of 17,985 miles and 551 days old, compared to 24,641 miles and 585 days for hybrids, and 24,335 and 670 days for petrol and diesel cars.

The average replacement tyre fitted to an EV was 18.59 inches and cost £207 while, for petrol and diesel cars, the corresponding figures were 17.40 inches and £130.

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/tires-fleet-motor-finance/

Fleet data suggests EV tyres only last 75% of the distance they do on other cars and are more expensive, costing 4.6p per mile compared to 2.1p for petrol and diesel cars.

A big proportion of those fleet EVs will be Tesla Model 3 LR with acceleration times similar to a BMW M3.You won't get 24,335 miles out of a set of BMW M3 tyres & Tbh you'd be lucky to see 15,000 miles.

My old Leaf is still on its original tyres at 25k miles. I would expect EVs tyres to wear similarly to ICEvs of the same size with the same performance. I suspect what is happening is that people are moving to bigger faster and more expensive EVs  - the Tusker report suggests drivers are getting better cars on their SalSac schemes - and this is reflected in the tyre wear statistics. So, no, EVs aren’t, per se, heavier on their tyres but on average the cohort of drivers with EVs will be spending more on tyres than the ICE fleet drivers. I think it goes back to what I was suggesting on Sunday - EVs don’t necessarily save their owners money. Like for like they should but the savings are consumed by the drivers choosing more expensive EVs than they would ICE cars.

I changed the rear tyres on my M3P at 18,000 miles due to a puncture. I kept the good one as a spare & it's got 3.4mm of tread remaining. On that basis they would have lasted around 24,000 miles. The front tyres were changed at 26,500 miles due to a sidewall bulge. I didn't keep the other one so I don't know exactly what the remaining life was. Although I booked in for both tyres, Kwik fit did ask if I only wanted one changing  so I assume there was plenty of life left in the undamaged one.

My 435d got through rear tyres every 18,000 miles & front tyres every 23,000 miles.

The cars are similar cost, similar performance, both awd & similar weight. The cost of 435d tyres was 4.27p/mile compared to the Model 3 which I reckon is 3.37p/mile after adjusting for the remaining life.

My mate has just changed all 4 tyres on his M3 LR (18" wheels) at 34,000 miles - although his rear tyres were down to the cords on the inside edge (oops!).

JKenH

With all the tax benefits we effectively now have a two tier system of EV ownership where those on SalSac or running their cars through a business are paying somewhere in the region of half what it costs the private motorist to run an EV on a PCP or PCH. It is no surprise that the number of private new EV sales is so low. The benefits of SalSac are becoming widely known and I wonder if other private individuals pass on new EVs because they know they will be paying twice what their neighbour on SalSac pays. 

As the Tusker report revealed the average age of cars new SalSac entrants to their schemes was 8.8 year it is apparent that people are trading up substantially. If you are a low mileage user then unless you have a very unreliable car it is still going to cost you more on a SalSac scheme than running an 8 year old car. Don’t  forget either the impact on pensions for SalSac drivers. My son was recently offered a SalSac car but compared to running his old Leaf he couldn’t make the sums work, despite being an additional rate taxpayer. How much more is a £10k Leaf going to depreciate? Given the huge depreciation in EVs over the last year, though, SalSac probably would have worked out cheaper than buying the Leaf from me as in one year he has taken a £7k hit but now he is better off running what he has. 

Of course, someone else carrying the depreciation risk is a huge attraction of PCP/PCH and SalSac schemes but as I have said before, were it not for SalSac (or business purchases) how many of us would be buying these £40k EVs or indeed any £40k new car? Perhaps more than one might think. There are a lot of double income families who have for the past 10 years been paying next to no mortgage interest and on 2 incomes £500 on a PCP or PCH was not a big expense. Once on that new car every 3 years treadmill it is hard to get off and SalSac has been a godsend giving people the chance to still put a new car on the drive (but this time an EV) and save a bit of money to go towards the mortgage. 

Given the low mileages reported by most of the Tusker customers, though, wouldn’t they have been better off buying a 3 year old Leaf? Well, apparently not. Scratching together £12k on a bank loan is probably today going to cost as much as the SalSac payments. On SalSac you don’t even need a deposit. 

This is hugely distorting the new and used car market and you would expect prices for used cars and new ICE cars to have fallen dramatically over the past year. But that hasn’t actually happened. What we have seen has been ICEV prices holding steady and new (discounted) and used EV prices falling dramatically. What does that say about underlying demand for EVs?

Perhaps the quota system being introduced next year will turn things around for new EV sales but I would imagine OEMs will not be in a big hurry to sell EVs in the last 3 months of this year if they can roll them over into next year to help meet their quotas. 

1961Nick

JKenH said:

With all the tax benefits we effectively now have a two tier system of EV ownership where those on SalSac or running their cars through a business are paying somewhere in the region of half what it costs the private motorist to run an EV on a PCP or PCH. It is no surprise that the number of private new EV sales is so low. The benefits of SalSac are becoming widely known and I wonder if other private individuals pass on new EVs because they know they will be paying twice what their neighbour on SalSac pays. 

As the Tusker report revealed the average age of cars new SalSac entrants to their schemes was 8.8 year it is apparent that people are trading up substantially. If you are a low mileage user then unless you have a very unreliable car it is still going to cost you more on a SalSac scheme than running an 8 year old car. Don’t  forget either the impact on pensions for SalSac drivers. My son was recently offered a SalSac car but compared to running his old Leaf he couldn’t make the sums work, despite being an additional rate taxpayer. How much more is a £10k Leaf going to depreciate? Given the huge depreciation in EVs over the last year, though, SalSac probably would have worked out cheaper than buying the Leaf from me as in one year he has taken a £7k hit but now he is better off running what he has. 

Of course, someone else carrying the depreciation risk is a huge attraction of PCP/PCH and SalSac schemes but as I have said before, were it not for SalSac (or business purchases) how many of us would be buying these £40k EVs or indeed any £40k new car? Perhaps more than one might think. There are a lot of double income families who have for the past 10 years been paying next to no mortgage interest and on 2 incomes £500 on a PCP or PCH was not a big expense. Once on that new car every 3 years treadmill it is hard to get off and SalSac has been a godsend giving people the chance to still put a new car on the drive (but this time an EV) and save a bit of money to go towards the mortgage. 

Given the low mileages reported by most of the Tusker customers, though, wouldn’t they have been better off buying a 3 year old Leaf? Well, apparently not. Scratching together £12k on a bank loan is probably today going to cost as much as the SalSac payments. On SalSac you don’t even need a deposit. 

This is hugely distorting the new and used car market and you would expect prices for used cars and new ICE cars to have fallen dramatically over the past year. But that hasn’t actually happened. What we have seen has been ICEV prices holding steady and new (discounted) and used EV prices falling dramatically. What does that say about underlying demand for EVs?

Perhaps the quota system being introduced next year will turn things around for new EV sales but I would imagine OEMs will not be in a big hurry to sell EVs in the last 3 months of this year if they can roll them over into next year to help meet their quotas. 

As well as the new entrants to the Salsac schemes, there is also the group who previously opted for a car allowance rather than a company car who have now switched back & run a company EV.

Martyn1981

1961Nick said:

JKenH said:

Fleet data suggests EV tyres only last 75% of the distance they do on other cars and are more expensive, costing 4.6p per mile compared to 2.1p for petrol and diesel cars.

EV tyres lasting 6,350 miles fewer than petrol or diesel, fleet data shows

Tyres fitted to electric vehicles (EVs) are lasting, on average, 6,350 fewer miles than those fitted to petrol or diesel cars, new fleet data from epyx suggests.

The first tyre change for electric cars takes place at an average of 17,985 miles and 551 days old, compared to 24,641 miles and 585 days for hybrids, and 24,335 and 670 days for petrol and diesel cars.

The average replacement tyre fitted to an EV was 18.59 inches and cost £207 while, for petrol and diesel cars, the corresponding figures were 17.40 inches and £130.

https://www.motorfinanceonline.com/news/tires-fleet-motor-finance/

Fleet data suggests EV tyres only last 75% of the distance they do on other cars and are more expensive, costing 4.6p per mile compared to 2.1p for petrol and diesel cars.

A big proportion of those fleet EVs will be Tesla Model 3 LR with acceleration times similar to a BMW M3.You won't get 24,335 miles out of a set of BMW M3 tyres & Tbh you'd be lucky to see 15,000 miles.

That's a good point, hadn't thought about a 'power' comparison.

Back to weight, and high torque always available, I'd assumed that BEV's would always be a bit harder on tyres. Though to be fair, that again depends on the vehicle. A Tesla 3 or MG4 both weigh about the same as a BMW 3 series ~1,700kg, but the Ford Mondeo is about 150kg lighter.

But, it seems that the tyre magicians can find solutions to this, by developing EV specific compounds. Bridgestone have launched (in the US) an EV version of their Turanza tyre (or tire), with a 50,000 mile limited warranty. Have to say that sounds a bit to good to be true (to me), but I have no knowledge/comprehension on role specific tyre compounds.

[Our 2018 IONIQ is due its MOT soon. Got a warning on two tyres in the 2021 test, but ~10k miles later, the tyres are still good, and should pass fine (famous last words).]

Bridgestone Introduces Turanza EV Grand Touring Tyre

How does the Turanza EV tire specifically cater to the needs of electric vehicles compared to conventional vehicles?

Electric vehicles, in comparison to their ICE counterparts, continuously generate high torque, which accelerates tire wear. The Bridgestone Turanza EV features a next-generation compound, called PeakLife™, which was designed with wear life and all-season performance in mind. Developed by our team of engineers and scientists at our Americas Technology Center in Akron, Ohio, the PeakLife polymer proceeded from the research and development phase to in-market product application in less than two years to prioritize significantly improving the Turanza EV’s wear capabilities. Bridgestone PeakLife technology focuses on improved wear resistance, which can help extend tread life, and is engineered to deliver lower levels of rolling resistance to increase vehicle fuel efficiency.

Additionally, electric vehicle tires account for upwards of 30% of cabin noise in the absence of ICE engine noise, which makes tires a bigger factor in the overall customer experience in terms of comfort. Also, with their generally higher vehicle mass, EVs tend to have stiffer suspensions, which can impact how resonant sounds from the road and tire are transmitted to the cabin. To offset this, the Turanza EV is equipped with Bridgestone’s QuietTrack technology, which are in-groove tracks to help prevent high-frequency noise by breaking up the resonant frequency. We also apply non-chamfered slots on the Turanza EV’s shoulder ribs and an optimized three-pitch sequence in the tread block to mitigate pattern noise. 

michaels

JKenH said:

With all the tax benefits we effectively now have a two tier system of EV ownership where those on SalSac or running their cars through a business are paying somewhere in the region of half what it costs the private motorist to run an EV on a PCP or PCH. It is no surprise that the number of private new EV sales is so low. The benefits of SalSac are becoming widely known and I wonder if other private individuals pass on new EVs because they know they will be paying twice what their neighbour on SalSac pays. 

As the Tusker report revealed the average age of cars new SalSac entrants to their schemes was 8.8 year it is apparent that people are trading up substantially. If you are a low mileage user then unless you have a very unreliable car it is still going to cost you more on a SalSac scheme than running an 8 year old car. Don’t  forget either the impact on pensions for SalSac drivers. My son was recently offered a SalSac car but compared to running his old Leaf he couldn’t make the sums work, despite being an additional rate taxpayer. How much more is a £10k Leaf going to depreciate? Given the huge depreciation in EVs over the last year, though, SalSac probably would have worked out cheaper than buying the Leaf from me as in one year he has taken a £7k hit but now he is better off running what he has. 

Of course, someone else carrying the depreciation risk is a huge attraction of PCP/PCH and SalSac schemes but as I have said before, were it not for SalSac (or business purchases) how many of us would be buying these £40k EVs or indeed any £40k new car? Perhaps more than one might think. There are a lot of double income families who have for the past 10 years been paying next to no mortgage interest and on 2 incomes £500 on a PCP or PCH was not a big expense. Once on that new car every 3 years treadmill it is hard to get off and SalSac has been a godsend giving people the chance to still put a new car on the drive (but this time an EV) and save a bit of money to go towards the mortgage. 

Given the low mileages reported by most of the Tusker customers, though, wouldn’t they have been better off buying a 3 year old Leaf? Well, apparently not. Scratching together £12k on a bank loan is probably today going to cost as much as the SalSac payments. On SalSac you don’t even need a deposit. 

This is hugely distorting the new and used car market and you would expect prices for used cars and new ICE cars to have fallen dramatically over the past year. But that hasn’t actually happened. What we have seen has been ICEV prices holding steady and new (discounted) and used EV prices falling dramatically. What does that say about underlying demand for EVs?

Perhaps the quota system being introduced next year will turn things around for new EV sales but I would imagine OEMs will not be in a big hurry to sell EVs in the last 3 months of this year if they can roll them over into next year to help meet their quotas. 

I think we have discussed this before, the majority of new EVs have a hidden £5k ish subsidy off the new price which will of course become visible when they are second hand as any depreciation will be from the post subsidy price not the list price.

JKenH

Another example of a poorly targeted subsidy that hasn’t been thought through. If you already are wealthy enough to own an EV and your own home do you really need a subsidy to make you fit solar panels? Huge amounts of money are being given to a small section of society that doesn’t need it. They have already had big subsidies to buy the EVs in the first place.  Should a state bank which presumably acts in the best interests of all the population be giving money away to the better off? This money presumably comes from the German government and must be funded by general taxation or cuts somewhere else. Hardly progressive. And since when is it the responsibility of a state owned bank to be involved in environmental measures? They really need to concentrate on sorting out Germany’s economy. Giving money away to spend on importing solar panels from China at the same time the EU is investigating dumping of EVs by China seems odd. 

Or it could be a scheme worked out to flick a few DM to Government/ Bank cronies. With the scheme closing after just one day, being “in the know” would have helped to get your application in quickly. If you were on the factory floor all day your opportunities would be limited. 

Germany Halts e-Car Solar Subsidy Programme Amid High Demand

Germany ‘s state-owned KfW bank on Wednesday said it had halted a day-old subsidy programme for charging electric vehicles with solar power at home as the funds were exhausted immediately due to high demand.

With a budget of 300 million euros ($317 million) from the transport ministry for this year, the programme offered a subsidy of up to 10,200 euros for homeowners with electric cars for installing a photovoltaic system with power storage and a charging station.

The programme was aimed at boosting the switch to electric cars and reducing the need for public charging stations.

Around 33,000 applications were submitted within 24 hours of its launch, meaning the earmarked funds had been exhausted, a spokesperson for KfW bank said. “We ask all interested parties not to submit any further applications.”

https://www.pmtoday.co.uk/germany-halts-e-car-solar-subsidy-programme-amid-high-demand/

Edit: better coverage of the story from Reuters.

Germany on Wednesday halted a subsidy scheme less than 24 hours after it was launched due to strong demand for the payments to install rooftop solar panels, storage and charging points, highlighting questions about the effectiveness of one-off subsidies in the switch to green energy.

With a budget of 300 million euros ($317 million) from the transport ministry for this year, the programme offered a subsidy of up to 10,200 euros for homeowners with electric cars to install a photovoltaic system and a charging station.

The exhaustion of the program's funds so quickly raised questions in the solar power market about the effectiveness of one-time market interventions in creating sustainable demand and boosting the switch to renewables.

The eligibility conditions for the program do not include a maximum household income but do require ownership of a house and an electric vehicle.

"The big share of the population who are tenants are excluded, and those who own apartments are excluded too," Lion Hirth, energy markets professor at Hertie School, told Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germany-halts-e-cars-solar-subsidy-programme-amid-high-demand-2023-09-27/

silvercar

Tuskar reporting that people were trading out much older cars than we might have been expecting is partly because people weren't using their cars as much during covid and/or lost income during covid, so kept their previous car for longer than they would otherwise have done. We certainly did keep both longer, original plan was to change one in late 2020 and the other early 2022. Covid effects meant we had much lower mileage due to less trips and more working from home, so we didn't change the cars until post covid.

The other benefit is that tuskar include insurance in their leasing, saving us more than we originally thought we would save.

MikeJXE

silvercar said:

MikeJXE said:

Grumpy-chap said 

I am keeping a full spreadsheet of costs (ignoring the tax breaks) so will be able to come out with some kind of overall figure.  I won't, of course, have a control group of an ICE car doing the exact same duty so, the best I'll be able to do is an assessment of whether the total costs per mile (including or excluding depreciation) are higher, lower, or about the same.

That will be interesting I have been doing that with my Jaguar XE since I bought it in December 2019. It was 3 years old Jaguar Approved  and cost £16,000 Logged every Litre of diesel, mpg,  service tyres etc 

Not got it on a spreadsheet but that wouldn't take much effort 

Surprisingly last week I checked out the exact same model on Jaguar Approved, same year but 10,000 miles more than mine cost was £17,600 

Why would you think that is ? 

Was doing similar. How are you accounting for insurance? Our leases include insurance, saving a much larger amount than anticipated. 

I keep everything including insurance, MOT, aircon recharge, not car wash that is very seldom as it seems to keep very clean 

JKenH

Volkswagen in Such Deep Trouble It Had To Cancel the Third Shift at Its Main Plants

Volkswagen's woes continue as demand for its electric vehicles is dwindling. The German carmaker responded with more production halts well into October. 

A Volkswagen spokesperson explained that the decision was triggered by weakened demand for the two EVs. Production of other MEB-based EVs, such as the ID.4, ID.5, Audi Q4 e-tron, and Audi Q4 Sportback e-tron, will continue in a three-shift operation in Zwickau.

This is the first time Volkswagen has acknowledged the demand problem for its EVs.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/volkswagen-is-in-such-deep-trouble-it-has-to-cancel-the-third-shift-at-its-main-plants-221854.html

1961Nick

JKenH said:

Volkswagen in Such Deep Trouble It Had To Cancel the Third Shift at Its Main Plants

Volkswagen's woes continue as demand for its electric vehicles is dwindling. The German carmaker responded with more production halts well into October. 

A Volkswagen spokesperson explained that the decision was triggered by weakened demand for the two EVs. Production of other MEB-based EVs, such as the ID.4, ID.5, Audi Q4 e-tron, and Audi Q4 Sportback e-tron, will continue in a three-shift operation in Zwickau.

This is the first time Volkswagen has acknowledged the demand problem for its EVs.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/volkswagen-is-in-such-deep-trouble-it-has-to-cancel-the-third-shift-at-its-main-plants-221854.html

The problem the ID3 has is that it's too expensive compared to a Model 3. The base model is £37K & the LR is £43K. On top of that you need to spend £6K on packs to get to the Tesla standard spec. That's a lot more money for a car that sitting some way below the Model 3 in the food chain. Another issue for VW is how close the ID3 & ID4 prices are & it's not unreasonable to assume the ID3 is losing sales to the ID4.