EV Discussion thread

JKenH

I thought this article was interesting. Morgan Stanley are suggesting OEMs might want to scale back investment in EVs as they are better served making money from ICE manufacture than trying to build and sell EVs when there is a price war on. 

As Tesla 'weaponizes' cost leadership Morgan Stanley believes legacy OEMs should reconsider EV spending plans

Following the company's 1Q results, Morgan Stanley held discussions with a number of clients about what Tesla's industry leading margins would mean for legacy OEMs. If Tesla ‘weaponizes’ their cost leadership in the form of price, does this impair the economic returns of the EV spending plans of legacy players?

Analysts believe the answer is yes. So much so that they are questioning whether this is the ‘moment’ where the Boards of the legacy OEMs can reconsider dialing back the magnitude and timing of their EV capex and R&D plans. Allowing more time for the ICE run-off to generate cash as we enter a more uncertain macroeconomic era.

https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/as-tesla-weaponizes-cost-leadership-morgan-stanley-believes-legacy-oems-should-reconsider-ev-spending-plans-432SI-3061945

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Tesla Model S and Model X apparently discontinued in right-hand drive but still available in left-hand drive versions.
I can't provide a link as I am not sure it was reliable (click-bait on wife's phone), but thought I'd mention in case anyone knows more.
If there is truth behind this, then this is not a discussion item but a news item.

Looks to be a fact now. I don't think a specific reason has yet been given, but I wonder if it's simply not worth the line changes, combined with the transportation/shipping issues for small numbers from the US?

The RHD markets for the 3/Y are being supplied from China, but if a 'shipload' of S's and X's goes to Europe from the US, then I assume they are distributed from one (or a small number of) port, so UK too? But Elon did say that production of the S/X is now more for sentimental reasons .... so maybe the low production and higher production cost no longer makes sense, especially for the RHD models?

All, speculation, of course. Plus, if you compare the specs of the S/X against the performance models 3/Y, they are bigger and 'better', but ~£30k better, not sure?

Edit - Forgot to say that Japan is still getting S/X models, but only LHD, and they are a little more open to such vehicles historically, as a way to import European cars that they otherwise wouldn't get. But as silvercar mentions, this may be a compromise. I had a LHD Yank Tank car for a few years, great fun, but also a right PITA at times. Being stuck behind buses on busy single lane roads (if I didn't have a co-pilot), as they went from bus stop to bus stop, whilst little old ladies in Fiesta's overtook us both, coz I couldn't see if the road ahead was clear. And 'lovely' narrow twisty roads/lanes, were a horror show.

Great for getting in and out as a driver, but you have to scream 'don't open the door' each time to passengers when you park, so they don't wipe out a cyclist, or lose the door to passing cars ........ forgotten how bad things were!!!

JKenH

Or the reason Tesla have dropped the X and S in RHD markets and cancelled orders could be they no longer were prepared to honour the prices at which customers had placed orders years ago. We may see the RHD S and X reappear in a few months time. If customers really want one now there are quite a few new ones in stock but perhaps that would mean cancelling the existing order and taking a stock vehicle at the new price. 

Edit: the stock listed in the UK is LHD.

Grumpy_chap

Definitely seems to be true:
https://www.carwow.co.uk/tesla/news/6903/tesla-model-s-model-x-right-hand-drive-production-dropped

I suspect this is a manufacturing capacity issue on ramp up and the RHD will be along shortly.

JKenH

Tesla appear to be offering discounts on inventory stock Model 3s - now cheaper than demo vehicles.

and Model Y.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Tesla appear to be offering discounts on inventory stock Model 3s 

and Model Y.

That could well make the discounts offered to customers with pre-ordered Model S and X rather moot.

JKenH

Two (related?) Tesla stories. Interesting that neither story has appeared (AFAIK) on CleanTechnica.

Estimated Tesla Order Backlog Weakened Again: 68,000 On April 30, 2023

Is this the new low?

https://insideevs.com/news/667701/estimated-tesla-order-backlog-april30-2023/

Tesla will ‘try a little advertising,’ Elon Musk says

https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/16/23726209/tesla-advertising-start-elon-musk-shareholders

JKenH

And more Tesla news from the 2023 shareholder meeting held a couple of days ago.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk indicated that the company is toiling away at bringing two new products to market. “I just want to emphasize that we are actually building a new product,” Musk said at first. However, he also used the word “designing” right after that: “We are actually designing a new product. We’re not sitting on our hands here.” So, note that by “building,” he didn’t mean “producing.” He later said “There are two new products that I think you will be very excited about” — not just one. 

With the coming models still in design stages, I wouldn’t expect one to arrive in 2023, and probably not even 2024. We’ll see about 2025. 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/17/tesla-leads-auto-world-in-operating-margin-model-y-best-selling-car-in-world-2-new-tesla-products-17-tesla-meeting-highlights/

Is one of these new models the $25k Model 2 which has already been trailed or are the 2 new models additional?

michaels

JKenH said:

And more Tesla news from the 2023 shareholder meeting held a couple of days ago.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk indicated that the company is toiling away at bringing two new products to market. “I just want to emphasize that we are actually building a new product,” Musk said at first. However, he also used the word “designing” right after that: “We are actually designing a new product. We’re not sitting on our hands here.” So, note that by “building,” he didn’t mean “producing.” He later said “There are two new products that I think you will be very excited about” — not just one. 

With the coming models still in design stages, I wouldn’t expect one to arrive in 2023, and probably not even 2024. We’ll see about 2025. 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/17/tesla-leads-auto-world-in-operating-margin-model-y-best-selling-car-in-world-2-new-tesla-products-17-tesla-meeting-highlights/

Is one of these new models the $25k Model 2 which has already been trailed or are the 2 new models additional?

Electrek suggests the model 2 (which looks like a shorter Y) and some sort of ride share MPV type vehicle

CKhalvashi

michaels said:

JKenH said:

And more Tesla news from the 2023 shareholder meeting held a couple of days ago.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk indicated that the company is toiling away at bringing two new products to market. “I just want to emphasize that we are actually building a new product,” Musk said at first. However, he also used the word “designing” right after that: “We are actually designing a new product. We’re not sitting on our hands here.” So, note that by “building,” he didn’t mean “producing.” He later said “There are two new products that I think you will be very excited about” — not just one. 

With the coming models still in design stages, I wouldn’t expect one to arrive in 2023, and probably not even 2024. We’ll see about 2025. 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/17/tesla-leads-auto-world-in-operating-margin-model-y-best-selling-car-in-world-2-new-tesla-products-17-tesla-meeting-highlights/

Is one of these new models the $25k Model 2 which has already been trailed or are the 2 new models additional?

Electrek suggests the model 2 (which looks like a shorter Y) and some sort of ride share MPV type vehicle

Would that be self-driving though, or with driver?

I can't see the former getting through licensing anywhere in UK, probably in most countries.

Would it be cheaper and/or better than a Vito Tourer or similar? They are a lot better in themselves than the UK-spec vans and actually quite competitively priced already.