EV Discussion thread

JKenH

If correct this could be significant for Tesla. It seems too good to be true so no doubt Tesla will challenge the position.

Tesla Owners in Germany Can Return the Cars and Get Their Money Back Even After 12 Months

Tesla is in a pickle in Germany after breaking the consumer protection legislation. European Union mandates that any product acquired online, cars included, can be returned, no question asked, within 14 days from purchase. Still, if the seller doesn't fully comply with the legislation and doesn't inform its customers of their rights, the right to return the product extends by 12 months. This could be a disaster for car companies that sell cars online, as they can depreciate significantly after one year.

Yet, Tesla is now forced to accept the return of its vehicles sold in Germany until April 17, even 12 months after the purchase. Tesla's mistake was that it didn't supply a phone number on the cancelation right notice that customers could call in case they wanted to return the cars. This breaks the stringent consumer protection legislation, which offers a 14-day money-back guarantee policy for goods bought online. As a consequence, the right to return for affected customers gets extended by 12 months, so it is now 12 months and 14 days in the case of Tesla.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-owners-in-germany-can-return-the-cars-and-get-their-money-back-even-after-12-months-214371.html

Grumpy_chap

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80027750#Comment_80027750

It was my understanding of the 14 days / 12-months thing (in UK - Germany may have slightly different rules) that the right to reject is 14 days but extends up to 12 months and 14 days if the prescribed information has not been given, or 14 days from whenever the prescribed information is given within that period.

If the latter, you can imagine that TESLA will be providing that prescribed information very quickly.

I also assume that TESLA will put in place some protection against this being abused - possibly taking back the cars and refunding if they are required to but refusing future purchase orders from the same individuals.

JKenH

Well, it had to happen eventually.

Fight at Tesla charging station leads to deadly shooting at Edgewater Public Market, police say

https://www.denver7.com/news/local-news/fight-over-tesla-charging-station-leads-to-shooting-in-edgewater-police-say

JKenH

Waiting times for new electric vehicles drop for the sixth consecutive month to an average of 21 weeks

In its latest research it found that wait times had dropped by 42 per cent since that October peak, down by a drastic 35 weeks.

However, Electrifying.com suggests that this drop in wait times is partly down to a consumers ‘pressing pause’ on their purchases because of a lack of affordable cars.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/waiting-times-for-new-electric-vehicles-drop-for-the-sixth-consecutive-month-to-an-average-of-21-weeks/283880

This is quite alarming. For EV waiting times to come down 35 weeks in 7 months, either manufacturers have ramped up their production enormously or orders have fallen off a cliff. If it were the former this would have been represented in new EV sales statistics but registrations are actually static y-o-y so it suggests the latter. 

shinytop

JKenH said:

Waiting times for new electric vehicles drop for the sixth consecutive month to an average of 21 weeks

In its latest research it found that wait times had dropped by 42 per cent since that October peak, down by a drastic 35 weeks.

However, Electrifying.com suggests that this drop in wait times is partly down to a consumers ‘pressing pause’ on their purchases because of a lack of affordable cars.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/waiting-times-for-new-electric-vehicles-drop-for-the-sixth-consecutive-month-to-an-average-of-21-weeks/283880

This is quite alarming. For EV waiting times to come down 35 weeks in 7 months, either manufacturers have ramped up their production enormously or orders have fallen off a cliff. If it were the former this would have been represented in new EV sales statistics but registrations are actually static y-o-y so it suggests the latter. 

Founder and CEO of Electrifying.com Ginny Buckley said: ‘Drivers wanting to get the keys to a new car as soon as possible are in luck, with waiting times just a fraction of what they were even six months ago.

‘Demand for electric cars has increased – we can see this in the most recent registration statistics, but I fear that private buyers are being left behind. If we’re to bring everyone along on the journey, car makers now need to make sure that more affordable models are launched to help drive uptake amongst mainstream consumers. 

That's the really telling statement.  There aren't enough relatively wealthy early adopters and salary sacrifice tax avoiders to service the required/desired growth.  As she says, the rest of the car buying public needs some help to start their journey.

Grumpy_chap

Grumpy_chap said:

For my part, I visited two charging destinations today.

Destination 1 - motorway services:

• 16 Tesla chargers of which 5 were in use.  Located remote from facilities
• 4 non-Tesla chargers of which 4 were in use on arrival.  Close to the facilities.  Of interesting note (to me anyway) was that on departure there were still 2 in use, but someone had unhelpfully parked and plugged in their MG5 such that they were taking up two parking spaces...

Destination 2 - retail

• 16 chargers of which 5 were in use and 1 ICE'd

OK, so today, we had to do a 200-mile each way journey (400 mile total).  I took note of the available EV chargers at the various stops we chose to make.

Stop 1 - lunch

• 2 charge points near buildings, 1 ICE'd, 1 available.
• 6 charge points away from buildings, 5 in use on arrival, 2 in use by departure.
• 15 Tesla superchargers, 6 in use.

Stop 2 - toilet break (only)

• 5 charge points near buildings, all out of service
• 12 charge points away from buildings, 11 in use
• 16 Tesla superchargers, 6 in use

Stop 3 - coffee break on return.

• 2 charge points, both in use on arrival.  Neither in use, but 1 ICE'd on departure

So, if I had been in an EV with, say, 280 mile range, a charge at lunch time when we were stopped would have been suitable and would not have added anything to journey time.

Availability of charge points is a bit "at the limit" from these examples in regards to non-Tesla EV's.

Coincidentally, there was some range anxiety in the ICE I was driving.  Rather than my own car (no longer mine) which would have done the return trip without re-fuelling, we were in my wife's Fiesta which has a smaller fuel tank and 400 miles is rather more than my wife usually gets from the car on a tank.  I think the motorway fuel efficiency plus running the tank lower than my wife does would have allowed us to get the whole return trip - if I was on my own, I would have pushed on.  However, I had Mrs G-C plus Mummy G-C in the car and it was far simpler to take a splash-and-dash fill at expensive motorway fuel prices (£10) than risk it and the ensuing argument and blame that would result if I called it wrong.  I also don't drive Mrs G-C's Fiesta that often so don't have the experience of exactly when that fuel gauge really means empty.  FWIW, even with the splash-and-dash tenner, the fuel light was on and indicating 46 miles remaining when we got home, that was more than 46 miles from the coffee stop.  The 10 minutes it took to fill was in addition to the coffee stop time, so increased journey time accordingly.

Martyn1981

Good point you raise about the petrol stop time being additional. I've always thought that v's the BEV charge whilst you take a break*. But tbf, I suppose the petrol fuel time should be halved (for a full tank full), as many ICEV's will need to refuel half as often as a BEV.

Your results look like good news for BEV drivers, as and when Tesla unlocks more of their supercharger locations. That would also hopefully increase the choice of BEV's for you.


*Edit - Thought I'd run with this just for a personal ponder. So sticking with a 20min stop, and based on actual experience, a Tesla 3/Y at a V3 stall will charge at about 250kw to 30%, about 200kw to 50%, and then continue dropping. But let's just say an average of 150kW, which also fits with slower chargers. [Of course a longer stop will allow more charging. A quick pee break, at low battery will charge very fast etc, etc, but 150kW hopefully averages out some of the variable.]

So 20mins at 150kW equals 50kWh (the Tesla charge rates are the net amount going into the battery), about 2/3rds of a LR model. At 70mph in good conditions, that's ~200 miles, but let's drive a tad faster with poor conditions, and drop it right down to 3 miles/kWh, then that's 150 miles and ~2hrs driving, ready for the next pit stop?

I think these ponderings compare reasonably well with required stops for a rest, pee and/or coffee, plus the ICE fueling? So long as a charger is available.

JKenH

I came across these comments in Autocar. The article wasn’t about charging but a long term test of an EV. (Autocar run several EVs long term and are generally pro EV). We haven’t yet reached the stage here where EV drivers shoot each other (as has happened in the US) but charging rage is becoming an issue (although not something I ever personally experienced).

I’ve learned to be patient when I charge, particularly having spent almost seven hours in an Ikea car park last month, stemming from an issue with the Korando. But many drivers appear to be in rather more of a rush. In fact, most times I’ve charged the car, I’ve encountered some sort of conflict or frustration.

One example involved a driver hammering the horn of his Nissan Leaf at a woman who had simply returned to her plugged-in Kia e-Niro to pack away her shopping. Another saw a taxi driver tapping on my window asking me to move out of the way, even though I was clearly parked and charging. And exactly half of my public charging trips (yes, I’ve been keeping count) have involved drivers standing by my car staring in to see how much charge is remaining or fiddling with the machine to see how long is left until they can have it for themselves.

I get there are shortcomings with the infrastructure, but intimidating other drivers won’t help overcome them. We’re all dealing with the same number of faulty, slow and congested chargers, after all, and we all have places we would rather be than sitting at the side of the road charging or waiting to do so.

Suggestion about Autocar 3rd May 2023 page 59
https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/6450d0ae59f14f3f51674bed/59

JKenH

I was following the discussion about @Grumpy_chap ’s road trip and the comparison of number of stops/refuelling time (further comment below) and came across this comment in another Autocar article, this time on the £120k Audi e-Tron GT.

The Audi and I also have a trip to Verona in the diary, which really will put it to the test. This will take planning, although there’s a useful website and app I’ve discovered: A Better Route Planner. It plots your journey and the necessary charging stops. It says the 845 miles from London to Verona will take six stops and just under two hours overall for charging time. Sounds reasonable.

Suggestion about Autocar 3rd May 2023 page 57
https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/6450d0ae59f14f3f51674bed/57

Most ICE cars that you would want to take on an 845 mile road trip would complete it comfortably with just one refuelling stop. Yes, of course you would want to stop for toilet and food breaks but in an ICE car you can plan these at your leisure, stopping when and where you want to stop, not because the car needs a drink. We drive 350 miles down to Cornwall most years and when and where we stop is very flexible depending upon how ready we are for a drink or toilet break. We might only drive 100 miles in one stint and then pull up in a lay-by with an attractive view. (We always take sandwiches and flasks so have that flexibility).

In an EV if your passenger decides they want a coffee/toilet break after travelling 60 miles (having, say, been stuck in a traffic jam on the M25) that messes up your charging schedule for the whole trip. You then have to fit in another stop just to charge when planned (when you might not actually need another toilet break) or rearrange your charging schedule - that’s fine in a Tesla, but not so good if you have to use other apps for the planning. It also means you feel obliged to drive past that favourite stop you had planned because the car’s needs come first. 

Why not just charge while having the unplanned coffee/toilet stop? Because you have only perhaps used 25% of your battery and any charge added will be slow and won’t put enough in to avoid another stop somewhere down the line. Do you really want to start a charge when your battery is at 75%? 

I only make these observations because when comparing ICE and EV refuelling stops it is always assumed with the latter you will be stopping anyway for a toilet/food break and the charging will fit happily around those and your overall journey time won’t be any longer. Well, if you are lucky it might not be, but you can’t rely on that.

Another assumption that is frequently made is that the time taken to plug in and start a charge then unplug when you are finished is zero but it takes several minutes to refuel an ICE car (which of course it does but how many minutes do you actually spend just holding the pump?). With a Tesla, it can be very short but with other chargers it can often take a while to get the charge going. (How many times do you read on Facebook that someone started the charge successfully then when they came back the charge had failed? I had this problem with several Osprey chargers that would connect and start charging then after 20 seconds stop - only a clunk from the car gave it away).

You often have to drive round and find the charger then grapple with an app and in some cases call the charging company to get the charge started. That’s assuming of course there is a vacant working charger. 

Often the vacant charger you will find is vacant for a reason - it isn’t working! It may not have a sign saying “out of order” on it but in this day and age if there are 12 chargers and only one vacant there is a reasonable chance that the the vacant one has a problem. Unlike petrol stations, which in my experience, always hang a sign on non working pumps so you can see before getting out your car, most EV chargers are unmanned or operated by a separate company to the service station provider and lack any signage on out of order chargers. It is only after you have plugged in that you find out there is a problem. By then your other half has set off for the toilet/cafe and isn’t going to like being told that coffee is going to have to wait while a charger becomes free or you are moving on to another location. 

Imagine if you have 6 stops planned on your 845 mile trip, just how many opportunities there are for things to go wrong. 

EVs are great for trips within their range but long distance trips involving charging have the potential to be problematic and stressful and in my experience usually are. 

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

I was following the discussion about @Grumpy_chap ’s road trip and the comparison of number of stops/refuelling time

I refuelled Mrs G-C's Fiesta and it indicates a total range of 444 miles so I suspect would have needed a fuel stop regardless of my intent to push on.

On that trip, a long range EV would have worked well with a charge at the lunch stop.  Things would not always work as conveniently.

The flexibility on where to refuel is greater with an ICE.
The opportunity for charging a Tesla would have been easy on that trip on Friday - with a non-Tesla, the opportunity would have been more limited.


In the other thread, there is a note about BYD and Geely leading the EV sales in Israel.  
Does anyone know how the Tesla charger network compares to non-Tesla charger network in Israel?
It certainly seems to be the charger network that forces the Tesla dominance in UK.


On a final note, I saw another used TM3 online and think I have persuaded Mrs G-C we should try to see it - took some time to convince her on colour.
EDIT:  sold already