EV Discussion thread

CKhalvashi

JKenH said:

As @Martyn1981 said range isn’t something we think of for ICE cars as fuelling presents no concerns. I didn’t think about miles per kWh when buying an EV, just how far it would go. Although range and mpg are two sides of the same coin other factors cause us to focus on one or the other. 

If you are wealthy enough to be able to afford a (petrol) Rolls Royce or a Ferrari, mpg and the cost of fuelling up wouldn’t/shouldn’t be an issue but if you are buying a small (economy) car it probably is. Range is probably a consideration whatever EV you buy. 

Speed of charging is probably a bigger issue than actual range (as long as the latter is realistic).

This was a bugbear on a recent long distance run with the Ioniq, but isn't 99% of the time. Obviously electricity once we'd crossed the border on the other side was more of a concern and this was why we swapped for a diesel. This situation seems to be stabilising now. Just to highlight that the range isn't an issue. I'm getting to the age where my bladder won't last more than about 3 hours anyway, it's charging for up to 90 minutes every 2-3 hours that's the issue, and that's only in unique circumstances. 30-40 minutes for a toilet break/coffee is welcomed.

We will be returning to UA next month but will be using Wizz out/Ryanair back and Flixbus, paired with 3 overnight trains in 5 days for other meetings we need to have. There are times a car is more convenient (and if mine could charge at 150kW I'd prefer it over flying/public transport), but there are times (especially when having to 'curfew bust' which isn't a normal consideration and definitely wasn't one when I ordered the car) when buses and trains are far more convenient.

Yes I'm happy with the Ioniq, yes I'd do that trip in it again without problems (plus the drive over to Lviv), but it's that one occasion I wish I'd spent about £5k more on the 64kWh Kona (which charges at about double the rate) or an ID3 Pro instead.

Just to avoid upsetting the FT, please note that the British government recommends against all travel to Ukraine at this time. We coordinate our movement with much more heavily localised contacts and information than an ordinary tourist would have and this wasn't touristic travel.

JKenH

Well, this is a novel defence!

Elon Musk’s statements could be ‘deepfakes’, Tesla defence lawyers tell court

A California judge has tentatively ordered Elon Musk to be interviewed under oath about whether he made certain statements regarding the capabilities of Tesla’s Autopilot features after the company questioned the authenticity of the remarks, claiming Musk is a “target for deep fakes”.

Tesla, however, opposed the request in court filings, arguing that Musk, the Tesla CEO, cannot recall details about the statement and questioning the authenticity of the recording.

“[Musk], like many public figures, is the subject of many ‘deepfake’ videos and audio recordings that purport to show him saying and doing things he never actually said or did,” Tesla said.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/27/elon-musks-statements-could-be-deepfakes-tesla-defence-lawyers-tell-court

JKenH

Either there is some substance to this claim or there isn’t but it’s not the first time we have heard it. It seems though from the previous article that Tesla might be disowning the self driving claims attributed to them so maybe there is a grain of truth in this report.

Tesla's not even in the top 10 of self-driving firms, according to experts who ranked all of the leading companies working on automation

The "leaders" include Mobileye, Waymo, Baidu, and Cruise. Tesla was named the only "follower" given its low ratings in automated-driving execution and strategy. The company has long come under fire for its "Full Self-Driving" and Autopilot technologies. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-sef-driving-not-in-top-ranked-autonomy-guidehouse-research-2023-3

shinytop

JKenH said:

Either there is some substance to this claim or there isn’t but it’s not the first time we have heard it. It seems though from the previous article that Tesla might be disowning the self driving claims attributed to them so maybe there is a grain of truth in this report.

Tesla's not even in the top 10 of self-driving firms, according to experts who ranked all of the leading companies working on automation

The "leaders" include Mobileye, Waymo, Baidu, and Cruise. Tesla was named the only "follower" given its low ratings in automated-driving execution and strategy. The company has long come under fire for its "Full Self-Driving" and Autopilot technologies. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-sef-driving-not-in-top-ranked-autonomy-guidehouse-research-2023-3

Maybe Tesla is going to focus on making better cars. I would much rather see investment in more affordable, relevant EVs than advanced cruise control systems. 

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

The "leaders" include Mobileye, Waymo, Baidu, and Cruise. Tesla was named the only "follower" given its low ratings in automated-driving execution and strategy. 

Those "leaders" that are mentioned are not the same level of recognition as household names, quite possibly not even targeting the consumer market.

Where Tesla are ahead is including the high level of "driver assist" technologies as standard compared to most other brands where that level of "driver assist" is only on option packs and / or top-trim versions of the car.  I can imagine that some of the premium brands of car would almost double in price if you wanted to add all the options adaptive cruise control, blind spot mirrors, lane keep assist, traffic sign assist, 360 camera etc.  In that regard, Tesla are setting a higher consumer expectation and that is, in a way, leading.

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

The "leaders" include Mobileye, Waymo, Baidu, and Cruise. Tesla was named the only "follower" given its low ratings in automated-driving execution and strategy. 

Those "leaders" that are mentioned are not the same level of recognition as household names, quite possibly not even targeting the consumer market.

Where Tesla are ahead is including the high level of "driver assist" technologies as standard compared to most other brands where that level of "driver assist" is only on option packs and / or top-trim versions of the car.  I can imagine that some of the premium brands of car would almost double in price if you wanted to add all the options adaptive cruise control, blind spot mirrors, lane keep assist, traffic sign assist, 360 camera etc.  In that regard, Tesla are setting a higher consumer expectation and that is, in a way, leading.

I think you will find the Nissan Leaf has most if not all that kit. (Not sure about traffic sign assist ,whatever that is. It certainly has the 360 camera which I don’t think Tesla has).

You may well be right that “Tesla are setting a higher consumer expectation and that is, in a way, leading” but maybe they are not delivering on those high expectations. How long is it since Elon Musk (or his Deepfake) promised a car that would drive itself across America autonomously? Tesla generates more publicity while other manufacturers like Ford, GM and Mercedes are quietly getting on with delivering sophisticated driver assistance  programmes.

We have been hearing from the EV community for several years that Tesla are way ahead of the competition but when you take away the fanboi hype and dig deep down what is it that Tesla does better than any other automaker as far as the product is concerned?

Take the hype over the 4680 cells on Battery Day. How revolutionary was that supposed to be and what happened? 

Tesla have got EV production sussed but that isn’t what matters to their customers. 

Tesla make very efficient EVs but so do Hyundai/Kia. Look beyond the efficiency and you will find most of the OEMs actually make better cars. As EVs become more commonplace (and all have decent range) the traditional values that buyers look for in cars become more important. 

As a package the TM3 and Y offer good value for money but it is hard to say they are any better now than the offerings from many of their competitors. It is simply the sheer amount of noise generated by both fanbois and the specialist EV press (CleanTechnica, Elektrek, Inside EVs etc) that somehow has created a myth that Teslas are far better than other EVs. Everyone gets caught up in the hysteria. 

I am going to say it; Teslas are good, among the best, but (other than for the supercharger network) are now no longer way out in front in terms of product or technology.

1961Nick

In defence of Tesla, there’s a big difference between FSD & these other geolocated systems to the point where it’s something completely different - think 10,000 times more difficult. There was some press coverage recently about Ford being the first with hands free driving, that may be so but it’s only on motorways & then only ones that have been mapped. The car becomes little more than a tram. My concern is that what Tesla are trying to do is so difficult that they may never achieve it.

Having said that, I’d be quite happy with Ford’s hands free lane keeping assist with geolocation in my Tesla as I’m unlikely to ever trust automated driving anywhere else.

The 4680 cell has been used on some Model Y standard range production but has yet to be scaled. I suspect that it’s possibly being reserved for Cybertruck & Semi production but may also appear in the Model 3 performance if that’s given a range increase.

JKenH

BYD posts over 400% year-on-year Q1 profit growth

BYD sold 552,076 NEVs in the first quarter, up 92.81 percent year-on-year, but down 19.22 percent from a record 683,440 units in the fourth quarter of last year.

The first quarter was typically a slow quarter for sales in the Chinese auto industry, taking into account the Chinese New Year holiday.

In the first quarter of this year, the withdrawal of some previously available support policies, as well as a rare price war in the auto industry, brought additional pressure.

Chinese passenger car sales in the first quarter were 4.27 million units, down 13.15 percent year-on-year and down 24.55 percent from the fourth quarter of last year, according to the China Passenger Car Association (CPCA).

https://cnevpost.com/2023/04/27/byd-over-400-yoy-q1-profit-growth/

JKenH

1961Nick said:

In defence of Tesla, there’s a big difference between FSD & these other geolocated systems to the point where it’s something completely different - think 10,000 times more difficult. There was some press coverage recently about Ford being the first with hands free driving, that may be so but it’s only on motorways & then only ones that have been mapped. The car becomes little more than a tram. My concern is that what Tesla are trying to do is so difficult that they may never achieve it.

Having said that, I’d be quite happy with Ford’s hands free lane keeping assist with geolocation in my Tesla as I’m unlikely to ever trust automated driving anywhere else.

The 4680 cell has been used on some Model Y standard range production but has yet to be scaled. I suspect that it’s possibly being reserved for Cybertruck & Semi production but may also appear in the Model 3 performance if that’s given a range increase.

All the YouTube videos I have seen of FSD in action have impressed me with what it can do but on safety critical systems getting it right most of the time isn’t good enough. Like you, I think Elon Musk and Tesla have bitten off more than they can chew with FSD - it is a step too far at this stage and it is testament to Elon Musk ability to walk on water that Tesla haven’t had more criticism than they have. They have not made it any easier by abandoning radar. 

Here is an article from Electrek on Tesla’s performance on the thorny subject of disengagements.

Tesla Full Self-Driving data looks awful: We challenge Elon Musk to prove otherwise

https://electrek.co/2022/12/14/tesla-full-self-driving-data-awful-challenge-elon-musk-prove-otherwise/

Meanwhile Deepfake is saying

“…For those that are using the FSD beta, I think you can see the improvements are really quite dramatic. There’ll be a little bit of two steps forward, one step back between releases for those trying the beta. But the trend is very clearly towards full self-driving, towards full autonomy. And I hesitate to say this, but I think we’ll do it this year. So that’s what it looks like.”

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-full-autonomy-2023-elon-musk/

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

I think you will find the Nissan Leaf has most if not all that kit. (Not sure about traffic sign assist ,whatever that is. It certainly has the 360 camera which I don’t think Tesla has).

I am not a Tesla fanboi and I agree the Leaf can have all / most of the same technology as the standard TM3.  Although, unlike the Tesla, the safety / driver-assist (I accept not everyone agrees it is safety) technology - Pro-Pilot for Nissan - is not available on the standard Leaf, an option on the mid-range and only standard if buying the top trim.  Exactly as I said "most other brands where that level of "driver assist" is only on option packs and / or top-trim versions".

If choosing an EV from the VAG-stable, these are again higher-trim / option items.  If going for a premium brand vehicle, you would need to be hitting the options list to the tune of several £k.  Not promoting the technology as standard.  The "enhanced autopilot" and "FSD" options on Tesla don't even seem available on some alternatives - though these seem to be simply software options with the Tesla and don't deliver any actual additional equipment in the car.

JKenH said:

when you take away the fanboi hype and dig deep down what is it that Tesla does better than any other automaker as far as the product is concerned?

Tesla make very efficient EVs but so do Hyundai/Kia. Look beyond the efficiency and you will find most of the OEMs actually make better cars. As EVs become more commonplace (and all have decent range) the traditional values that buyers look for in cars become more important. 

As a package the TM3 and Y offer good value for money but it is hard to say they are any better now than the offerings from many of their competitors. 

I am going to say it; Teslas are good, among the best, but (other than for the supercharger network) are now no longer way out in front in terms of product or technology.

As I have said before, and confirmed when I test-drove recently, the TM3 is the best Electric Car.  Part of that is the range and part of that is the Supercharger Network and, now, value-position.

While Tesla may have the best Electric Car, other manufacturers make better cars that are electric.

When we test-drove, the MG5, we came out with an enthusiastic "just buy it" attitude - it was only after that the zero safety rating that we pulled back.
The TM3 did not generate the same enthusiasm from the test drive, but it would do as a car - we'd have to learn to live with the things that, as a car, it did particularly poorly.

Against the Tesla, though, what else do we look at?
The Kia EV6 is fantastic in the show-room, but we did not test drive because to get the same equipment level to match the TM3 the price is sky-rocketing plus the car is just physically so absolutely enormous.
The Mercedes EQE is at least £20k price premium over the TM3.
The Citroen C4e has a small battery, but otherwise ticks the boxes.
Toyota BZ4X is too large.
Lexus UXe has too small battery.
The iD3 was all rather flimsy and poorly built, nothing like the quality expected of the VW brand, certainly nothing "like a Golf" for those that recall the advert.

There is actually a very small variety of choice of EV's, especially if taking into account preferences on body-style and car size.
Plus the price premium to acquire is still very real.

I guess really, the difference is in mind-set.  Tesla, MG, BYD have embraced EV as the future and going fast to be fully-electric.  Legacy auto are still in the mind-set that EV is something to be resisted, tick-box a minimum number of units to satisfy pesky Government targets.  It may take one or two of the major players to go to the wall before the survivors get the message.