EV Discussion thread

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

… but in real life perhaps less efficient than what the official figures suggest. 

What range might someone new to EVs reasonably expect from a Tesla Model 3 RWD? Around 300 miles perhaps? Will they get that in the TM3s natural environment- the third lane of a motorway?

I think it is obvious, to me anyway, that the WLTP range for an EV is equivalent to the quoted mpg for an ICE.

Maybe worth taking a look at this article, particularly if you are considering a Tesla Model 3 LR.EVs fall short of WLTP range by 15%
Electric vehicles (EVs) fall short of their claimed WLTP range figures by 14.8%, on average, according to independent testing by What Car?.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2021/07/29/evs-fall-short-of-wltp-range-by-15

JKenH

Study: EV battery degradation “hugely” overestimated

56% of of consumers “hugely overestimate” the likely degradation of used electric car batteries over a five year period, believing a 30% range drop is likely when it is suggested that 20% or less is more likely, according to April’s Startline Used Car Tracker.

EV batteries degrade at an average of 2.3% per year, according to a study of 6,300 EVs by Geotab.

https://www.aftermarketonline.net/news/fullstory.php/aid/7866/_Study:_EV_battery_degradation__93hugely_94_overestimated.html

scrappycars

This is an interesting development in the electric vehicle (EV) industry. According to the article, roughly half of low-mileage EVs being salvaged have suffered minor battery damage, which can be caused by something as simple as mounting a kerb. The article suggests that car manufacturers are not sharing diagnostic data, which makes insurance companies reluctant to attempt repairs and assume responsibility should anything go wrong. As a result, EVs with minor damage are being written off and scrapped rather than being repaired, which is not an ideal situation for the industry.

While this may be a concern for EV owners and enthusiasts, it is important to note that this is not a unique problem to EVs. All cars can suffer from damage that is deemed too expensive to repair, and this is a decision that is made by insurance companies based on the cost of repair versus the value of the vehicle. It is possible that as the EV market grows and more diagnostic data is made available, insurance companies will become more comfortable with attempting repairs on EVs with minor damage.

It is also worth noting that EVs are still a relatively new technology, and it may take some time for the industry to fully develop and mature. As more EVs hit the road, the availability of spare parts and the cost of repairs may come down, making it more economical to repair damaged EVs. Overall, it is important for EV owners to be aware of the potential for minor battery damage and to take care when driving their vehicles to avoid unnecessary damage.

CKhalvashi

scrappycars said:

This is an interesting development in the electric vehicle (EV) industry. According to the article, roughly half of low-mileage EVs being salvaged have suffered minor battery damage, which can be caused by something as simple as mounting a kerb. The article suggests that car manufacturers are not sharing diagnostic data, which makes insurance companies reluctant to attempt repairs and assume responsibility should anything go wrong. As a result, EVs with minor damage are being written off and scrapped rather than being repaired, which is not an ideal situation for the industry.

While this may be a concern for EV owners and enthusiasts, it is important to note that this is not a unique problem to EVs. All cars can suffer from damage that is deemed too expensive to repair, and this is a decision that is made by insurance companies based on the cost of repair versus the value of the vehicle. It is possible that as the EV market grows and more diagnostic data is made available, insurance companies will become more comfortable with attempting repairs on EVs with minor damage.

It is also worth noting that EVs are still a relatively new technology, and it may take some time for the industry to fully develop and mature. As more EVs hit the road, the availability of spare parts and the cost of repairs may come down, making it more economical to repair damaged EVs. Overall, it is important for EV owners to be aware of the potential for minor battery damage and to take care when driving their vehicles to avoid unnecessary damage.

EVs are not a particularly new technology, GM EV1 is a mainstream model that stands out. The populatory has increased in the last few years but the Leaf and original Tesla have been out for around 10 years, I think the Leaf slightly longer

This may surprise some here (I'm not a fan of the newer versions on a 'would I buy this/can I justify the price' basis but can see the technology in the cars and other potential appplications for this) but I do own a limited number of Tesla shares from not long after they floated.

Frankly if insurers aren't able to put a device into the OBD port (I have a cheap reader that picked up a fault code a Ford main dealer supposedly couldn't) then I have little faith in the insurers rather than the cars.

Inherently there is nothing wrong with EVs and mine is treated no better or worse than my last (diesel) car, but is probably driven a little lighter. I find most EVs I've driven, and those I've been driven in (with the exception possibly of some BYD thing from the airport in Minsk a few years ago) to feel quite robust and well built. I'm sure the BYD cars are too and just feel like endless grey cheap plastic.

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

… but in real life perhaps less efficient than what the official figures suggest. 

What range might someone new to EVs reasonably expect from a Tesla Model 3 RWD? Around 300 miles perhaps? Will they get that in the TM3s natural environment- the third lane of a motorway?

I think it is obvious, to me anyway, that the WLTP range for an EV is equivalent to the quoted mpg for an ICE. 
So, if I buy a petrol car quoting 50 mpg, I might expect 35-40 mpg real world (20-30% worse).
Similarly an EV quoting 300 miles, I might expect 225 miles or thereabouts real world.  A bit less in winter, maybe 200 miles...

I also understand that an EV will excel by comparison to an ICE in town, given that the stationary EV uses nothing for motive power while the ICE engine is still ticking over (even on ICE's with stop-start, the conditions are often not correct for the stop-start to be active).

I suspect that I may not be typical of the ICE-driver aspiring EV-driver. 

The misunderstanding is not helped by sales representatives, for example when I looked at the Toyota BZ4X, the individual presenting the car repeatedly stated the range was 310 miles in all conditions...

My older brother, however, purchased his i3 on the "worst-case" assumption regarding range and has then been pleasantly surprised at exceeding expectations.

Hiya GC. You got me thinking yesterday with this. I'm wondering if my next statement is just something I've assumed, or if others have missed this too?

So, it suddenly dawned on me, that I don't think I've ever thought of range for ICEV's. It was always mpg. But for BEV's we talk about total range. Combine this with the mpg figures I grew up with (before combined estimates), giving a city figure, a 70mph figure, and the best (typically) the 56mph figure. So I knew that (thinking back) I would be burning more petrol/diesel at higher speeds, but with no concern for refueling, I never pondered range per tankfull.

This then flips with a BEV. Whilst I find it fun to look at the wh/mile figures, sometimes, for pottling about, I don't think about range. I just recharge once it gets low enough. But when planning a long trip, I do think about range, but a longer trip typically involves motorways, and motorway speeds, which will reduce the max range of the BEV.

Not sure this makes sense, but suspect the change in thinking may be an issue. As you say, you know lower speed will be more efficient in a BEV (as do I), but max range will be impacted by speed. Fun times, and I've no idea how typical you are of an ICEV driver with EV aspirations, but I suspect many, maybe most, wouldn't apply the speed factor to max range. But still early days.

Maybe all BEV buyers should be directed to the EV-Database, and the selection of ranges/circumnstances given?

Grumpy_chap

I also never thought about range for an ICEV.

Martyn1981 said:

Maybe all BEV buyers should be directed to the EV-Database, and the selection of ranges/circumnstances given?

Perhaps brochures just need to quote range for different operating states.  Like the different mpg figures are quoted.

silvercar

To be more comparable, it should be mpt (miles per tank) vs EV range. 

Spies

silvercar said:

To be more comparable, it should be mpt (miles per tank) vs EV range. 

That doesn't compare very well, as you'd pay way less to 'fill up' an EV than a ICE car.

Grumpy_chap

silvercar said:

To be more comparable, it should be mpt (miles per tank) vs EV range. 

That would not compare very well as, if considering range for an ICEV, that parameter would show the giant gas-guzzler with a big tank more favourably than the city car.

JKenH

As @Martyn1981 said range isn’t something we think of for ICE cars as fuelling presents no concerns. I didn’t think about miles per kWh when buying an EV, just how far it would go. Although range and mpg are two sides of the same coin other factors cause us to focus on one or the other. 

If you are wealthy enough to be able to afford a (petrol) Rolls Royce or a Ferrari, mpg and the cost of fuelling up wouldn’t/shouldn’t be an issue but if you are buying a small (economy) car it probably is. Range is probably a consideration whatever EV you buy.