EV Discussion thread

ABrass

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Life cycle analysis shows environmental impact of EVs

The huge potential of reducing a vehicle’s impact on the climate by going electric is being diminished by a growing trend towards larger and heavier plug-in cars, new research suggests.

LCA results from the 34 tested cars show that battery electric vehicles (BEVs) are ahead in reducing greenhouse gases with 40‑50% less emissions compared to conventional petrol cars, depending on the model chosen.

In terms of primary energy demand, the differences between electric and conventional cars are less.

https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2023/03/23/vehicle-life-cycle-shows-true-impact-of-electric-vehicles-on-climate

As an exercise I looked at the Green NCap calculator https://www.greenncap.com/lca-tool/  and selected examples of the two vehicles tested that were the closest to what I have been driving (Nissan Leaf and VW Golf with an annual mileage of 6000 miles) and this was the result. I selected the Green NCap average test results model.

 

6000 miles favours the petrol car but change to 10,000 mile p.a. and the position swings to a distinct advantage for the EV. 

So aside from the already mentioned, why does the EV chassis without the battery take 20% more energy than the ice including the engine, I wonder how they calculate the 'Energy supply' portions as in the first example the EV uses 20% less energy and in the second it uses 33% less so this is obviously not just the energy in the fuel being counted.

This is also a 'total energy' comparison not a total CO2 comparison as the ICE fuel energy can not be renewable.  So bit of an odd comparison altogether unless we are assuming that renewable energy is also a problem?

Could it be that a lot of EVs have to share a body & chassis with a hybrid & ICE powertrain variant? Many EVs comparable to the 1800kg Model 3 are quite portly often weighing over 400kg more.

I think it's probably because the average EV is more advanced than the average ICE. They are at a higher price point so more electronics like driving assistance, more aluminium to save weight.

Plus there is the motor  which will have a meaningful amount of electronics.

michaels

Still smells like FUD to me - the fact the comparison is on total energy rather than total CO2 gives no benefit to fuelling with renewable electricity. 

And there is still the question of why the proportions of energy for propulsion differ for the different mileages.

shinytop

michaels said:

Still smells like FUD to me - the fact the comparison is on total energy rather than total CO2 gives no benefit to fuelling with renewable electricity. 

And there is still the question of why the proportions of energy for propulsion differ for the different mileages.

I thought I explained why they concluded EVs took more energy a couple of days ago; it was all in the original link provided by JKenH.  
https://www.greenncap.com/wp-content/uploads/Green-NCAP-Life-Cycle-Assessment-Methodology-and-Data_2nd-edition.pdf

Extract below; you can even work it out based on C02 if you want to.  

michaels

But you are not answering the question:
1) Why are you comparing in terms of energy demand when not all energy is 'equal' in terms of CO2?  Isn't the problem CO2e rather than total energy use per se?
2) Why does the proportion of energy saved for propulsion change as you increase the mileage. Surely if 90k miles uses 20% less energy for an EV than it does for an ice then 150k miles should also use 20% less energy not 33% less?

ABrass

The study seems detailed, some simplification but not as bad as I'd thought at first glance.

EVs have always needed a certain level of milage to break even financially and in terms of milage. That it's about 6,500 Miles a year for a car made now is pretty good.

JKenH

Will UK follow EU by lifting 2035 diesel and petrol new car sales ban?

Speculation is growing that the UK could ease back on plans for an all-out ban on the sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2035 after the EU drafted legislation to allow vehicles powered by e-fuels.

https://www.am-online.com/news/latest-news/2023/03/28/will-uk-follow-eu-by-lifting-2035-diesel-and-petrol-new-car-sales-ban

JKenH

LSH Auto launches BYD franchise inside its flagship Mercedes-Benz Stockport dealership

LSH Auto UK has added the Chinese BYD electric vehicle (EV) franchise into its flagship Mercedes-Benz premium car dealership in Stockport.

https://www.am-online.com/news/dealer-news/2023/03/23/lsh-auto-launches-byd-franchise-inside-its-flagship-mercedes-benz-stockport-dealership

This seems to me to be quite a coup, not only in terms of prestige for the BYD brand but offering existing Mercedes Stockport customers at the lower end of the market (A-Class/£40k customers) an EV alternative at a lower price with the kudos of it coming out the same showroom as their neighbour’s Mercedes. 

JKenH

Beware China’s imperial ambitions in the electric car market

When it comes to conquering certain industries, the Chinese playbook is tried, tested, and ruthlessly implemented without a moment’s thought given to whether it is playing by the rules of global commerce and trade.
 
Past experience of China’s modus operandi suggest the following is likely: first, its big carmakers will flood the Continent with their own cheaper models in a bid to undercut European rivals and quickly snatch market share; and second, the move will be strongly backed by Beijing, which has thrown billions of dollars in subsidies at its electric vehicle industry.
 
It was through such policies that China came to wholly upend the global steel market, and Huawei managed to quickly gain a substantial slice of Europe’s communications infrastructure before being largely chased out by Washington over security concerns.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/23/beware-chinas-imperial-ambitions-electric-car-market/

michaels

JKenH said:

Beware China’s imperial ambitions in the electric car market

When it comes to conquering certain industries, the Chinese playbook is tried, tested, and ruthlessly implemented without a moment’s thought given to whether it is playing by the rules of global commerce and trade.
 
Past experience of China’s modus operandi suggest the following is likely: first, its big carmakers will flood the Continent with their own cheaper models in a bid to undercut European rivals and quickly snatch market share; and second, the move will be strongly backed by Beijing, which has thrown billions of dollars in subsidies at its electric vehicle industry.
 
It was through such policies that China came to wholly upend the global steel market, and Huawei managed to quickly gain a substantial slice of Europe’s communications infrastructure before being largely chased out by Washington over security concerns.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/03/23/beware-chinas-imperial-ambitions-electric-car-market/

And that is before you even think about where your American Tesla or Swedish Volvo/Polestar are actually built.

JKenH

Today, Tesla have removed all the discounted new cars from inventory. The only new inventory cars listed are Demo models (16 M3s and 42MYs compared to 242 and 305 new yesterday). Tesla had been offering 3000 free supercharger miles for deliveries before month end on top of the £4K+ discounts.

Discounts are still being advertised on new M3 and MY stock in Germany.

Edit: actually I’m not sure whether the supercharger miles were added to the discounted cars or just owners taking delivery of ordered cars.

Edit 2: a bit more detail on the credits for deliveries before 31 March.

Starting Tuesday in Europe, new Tesla buyers can receive 100 so-called “Loot Box Credits” when referred by a current Tesla owner, who will get 2,000 credits for the referral. If the referred customer takes delivery before March 31, 2023, they’ll get a bonus of 5,000 free Supercharging kilometers, and the referrer will get 10,000 credits. Those credits can be redeemed for software upgrades, up to 10,000 kilometers of free Supercharging “and more.”


https://techcrunch.com/2023/03/27/tesla-brings-back-european-referral-program-as-end-of-q1-nears/

In total Tesla are giving away the equivalent of 9,000 free supercharger miles (15,000 kilometres in Europe) with new deliveries shared between the referrer and referred customer - that’s worth about £4,500 at today’s supercharger prices. 

Edit 3: according to Teslerati the referral scheme does apply to inventory stock so potentially yesterday you could have bought an M3 for £38,790 and share £4,500 of free supercharger miles with the referrer.

According to Tesla’s website, European customers earn 100 credits when referred by a current Tesla owner, while the referrer earns 2,000 credits. But if you take delivery before the end of the quarter or buy from the automaker’s inventory, the buyer receives an additional bonus of 5,000 free Supercharging kilometers, while the referrer earns 10,000 credits.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-referral-program-europe-incentive/

Although the discounts have disappeared on UK inventory (the cars have as well) in Germany you can get a €5,600 discount on a new M3 LR and share the 15,000 free supercharging kilometres. 

Edit 5: I got a bit confused with kilometres and miles. It’s 5000km in Europe and 3,000 miles in the uk so the free supercharger saving is more like £4,500 shared with the referrer. I think I have corrected all the mistakes but apologies big there is still one in there.