EV Discussion thread

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

That's one of the funny questions/ponders that I've had. If you think about what's classed as 'luxury', then at least a couple of points apply to BEV's simply by default. One being the NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) which luxury cars spend a lot of money minimising. 

Yes, you would think that BEV would have been a natural bedfellow for the absolute top-end luxury cars where refinement is a selling point - Rolls Royce, Bentley, Range Rover.
The S-Class (EQS) seems to be about the only such vehicle to have made that transition (and that was fairly recently) and I think there is an EV-7 series very near.  
Jaguar have been saying for the past few years that all their cars will be EV "next year", starting with the XJ, but talk is not walk.
VAG, perhaps oddly, presented high end EV Audi (e-tron GT) and Porsche (Taycan) but not Bentley version.  The marketing has been around the performance aspect (which I suppose is what you'd expect for the image of the brands selected).

Martyn1981 said:

Of course, the other side of it is that BEV's need loads of clever engineering to minimse wind and tyre noise as it can no longer be hidden behind the engine drone. It's 'spottable' on the Leaf's and Tesla's, where they use the headlight shape to help direct airflow.

Oddly, I was waiting at a bus stop when I first saw this post and at the exact time I was reading it, and EV pizza moped passed and the tyre noise was very noticeable.  Better than the sound of a 2-stroke though.
In the MG, we did notice the wind noise rather more than we'd ever notice in an ICE.

Martyn1981 said:

Are coming over to the 'dark' side? Getting any closer to settling on a BEV, or still enjoying the choice, whilst you work out what's the best BEV for you?

Our EV aspiration remains an aim.  Since driving the MG, we have been too busy to look at anything else.
I did send the MG Dealer a message asking them to confirm the safety rating, the message has been acknowledged but there is no actual answer to the question.  I chased them also.  That is two-weeks now so I assume the question will not be answered.

Oddly, out of the blue, I was contacted about possibly working for a company that I worked for previously.  That was only yesterday and quite possibly nothing will come of it, plus the reasons I left in the first place may still be there (or may not given it was 6 years ago a lot could have changed).  If that does grow legs then I'd have to consider that I'd be doing much more mileage (total) which would justify the expense of a new car more easily, plus they have an SS scheme which would totally change the dynamic.

JKenH said:

I suspect some people find comfort in the vibration on tick over given the number of diesel vans I see parked with the diesel engine running and the driver reading the Sun. 

Being happily married, I have never considered the vibration characteristics of a Transit van as a feature.  What page of The Sun was the driver reading?

michaels

Drove an xtrail epower - this tech has been roundly criticised but I think because people see it as an alternative to an EV - if you see it as an alternative to an ice then it makes sense - well for vehicles predominantly use for short low speed stop/start journeys and the simplicity compared to the Toyota hybid drive seems like a win - it drove just like our leaf (or any other EV - ie much better than an ice) and you were hard pressed to notice the engine (generator) cutting in and out.

1961Nick

Martyn1981 said:

1961Nick said:

I had a 2017 Model S P100D for a few days last week & even my wife noticed how much noisier it was than our Model 3. I hadn't really appreciated until then what a good job Tesla had done with NVH in the M3 & how easily other noises could infect a BEV.

Might have my dates confused, but your TM3 may be prior to Tesla adding double laminated glass to the front windows, so even better now, not that it was an issue for us with the TM3 which had single glass, tbh.

Mine does have the double glazed side windows. One downside is that they take a long time to defrost/demist if you don't preheat the cabin.

Petriix

Having driven both EVs and ICE for work I can absolutely confirm that the EV is far less fatiguing to drive over a period of hours. 

JKenH

Just an alternative opinion. I miss my Leaf around town but since moving back to my petrol (manual)  Golf, I have been far more relaxed on long journeys. Keeping one eye on the battery gauge and the speedometer while worrying about whether the charger you plan to stop at will be free/working can be tiring. Actually finding it occupied or not working adds another level of stress. 

An EV is quieter but once you have the music on you don’t really notice the engine noise.  Modern petrol and diesel cars are no more tiring to drive than EVs. There are exceptions of course. Driving a manual car in stop start traffic is a pain but an awful lot of modern cars are automatic and have driver assist systems on a par with EVs. I had a 9 speed auto in my last Mercedes that was super smooth. 

Because of the extra weight the ride in EVs can be a bit firmer and handling not so sharp. You don’t buy an EV for driving fast. (Having said that you can’t safely drive any car fast on the public road). The most fun cars for having fun on public roads are lightweight nimble, relatively  low powered cars.

Cars like the Nissan X-Trail and Qashqai with the E-Power option drive just like EVs without the weight penalty of heavy batteries. You can get the EV type driving experience without the stress. 

I should point out that after getting the 40kWh Leaf, I said I didn’t want to drive an ICE car again. I sold my Golf, then my Mercedes sports car. I was as committed to EVs (as cars) as anyone on here. It wasn’t because I fell out of love with EVs - the poor state of the charging infrastructure just didn’t fit in with my lifestyle (and it certainly wouldn’t if I were still working). It wasn’t like that to start with - I rarely came across broken or occupied chargers - but as lockdowns eased and more people acquired EVs it got worse. A trip that had been an adventure became a chore. I understand EVs work fine for many of you and I understand your passion but sometimes being passionate about something can make us lose objectivity and unable to see why not everyone sees things the same as us. 

Whether we prefer EVs or ICE vehicles is a subjective thing. One is not objectively better than the other - it may just seem that way to us. I don’t have a petrol Golf because it is better than an EV in objective terms. It just works better for me. (It probably wouldn’t for you).The weight I attach to what it does well outweighs any disadvantages it may have relative to an EV. I had to live with an EV to find that out. 

Edit: comment added about driving fast.

paul991

I would love to have a second hand ev ,as a second car to do 90 per cent of local driving with , but how do you know how much range its got left when you buy it.short of asking the seller to fully charge and then witness the range yourself

Petriix

It's nothing to do with noise and everything to do with vibration. An engine runs as a series of explosions which vibrate the whole vehicle, especially through the steering wheel. People put up with a whole load of unpleasantness with an ICE.

Personally, long journeys at 20p per mile are far more anxiety causing than any thoughts of range or charging. And, before you start ranting about current rapid charging prices, remember that I'll be fully charged at Octopus Go rates before and after my trip. 

JKenH

Petriix said:

It's nothing to do with noise and everything to do with vibration. An engine runs as a series of explosions which vibrate the whole vehicle, especially through the steering wheel. People put up with a whole load of unpleasantness with an ICE.

Personally, long journeys at 20p per mile are far more anxiety causing than any thoughts of range or charging. And, before you start ranting about current rapid charging prices, remember that I'll be fully charged at Octopus Go rates before and after my trip. 

I encounter more unpleasantness on this forum than I do sitting in my ICE. 

I don’t need to “rant” about rapid charging prices as I no longer have an EV. My son has, though, and when he visits us for the day he always tops up his car on my home charger for the trip home. It usually takes about 30kWh to replace what he has used in the 100 mile trip here. It just so happens that today, my new Octopus Go tariff started and I now pay 12p for four hours from 00.30 to 04.30 and 40.23p for the rest off the day. To fill his car up today would have cost £12 or 12p per mile. 

I have just been to my Golf and taken these images.

Since I last refuelled I have driven 280 miles and averaged 61.7mpg over a variety of different journeys including several less than 10 miles and some motorway driving. I know the mpg reading is 4% optimistic so the actual mpg is 59.2. I paid 143p per litre to fill up courtesy of a 5p money off voucher from Morrisons. That offer might not be on next time so I will most likely pay 145.9 per litre (662p per gallon) at Asda when I refill while doing the weekly shop. That’s 11.2p not 20p per mile and it is as cheap as topping up an EV on Go daytime rates. 

When you are filling up your 50kWh battery on your cheap night time tariff remember you will only be able to deliver about 25kWh into the battery after charging losses at the cheap rate and then you will be on the higher daytime rate. I don’t know what your daytime rate is but if it is 40p then you would paying on average 26p.after charging losses that’s a real cost of 30p per kWh to fill your battery. (You may be on a legacy tariff and it currently costs you less but eventually you will end up paying something like 12/40p.) You may say that you only ever put 25kWh into your car overnight but there will be many others who do need to add more than that if they need to do long trips on successive days which could happen if you using an EV for work. Put 75kWh in a battery overnight and it will cost an average of 30p/kWh on Octopus Go.

I have not posted these figures to attempt to prove it is cheaper to fuel an ICE car than an EV - charged at home it shouldn’t be although for some people it could be. I have quoted my alternative real life scenario because you are being very selective with by quoting a 20p per mile cost for ICEVs (which I calculated is about 33mpg for a petrol car) and then referring to a cheap overnight tariff for all your charging as though these are in some way representative of the comparative cost of the two technologies. 

If you are going to compare efficiency of new EVs against ICEVs then it is only fair to compare vehicles of similar age. This chart from Statista shows the average mpg of a new petrol car in the UK is  5.4 litres per 100km which is 52.3 mpg. https://www.statista.com/statistics/780748/new-car-fuel-consumption-great-britain/

If 20p per mile is genuinely causing you anxiety then I would advise not looking at the depreciation cost of your EV. 

Petriix

If that's not a rant then I don't know what is...

1961Nick

If you've got an EV & can smart charge you'd be daft not to sign up for Intelligent Octopus rather than GO - 6 hours 40//10p