EV Discussion thread

michaels

Isn't the refuelling time saving the issue rather than the weight?

JKenH

michaels said:

Isn't the refuelling time saving the issue rather than the weight?

Yes, time is money, particularly in the commercial world. Volvo claims its new HFCEV will refuel in 15 minutes and with a range of 1000km will save a lot of time. I can imagine the typical lorry driver will have a lot of paperwork to do while he is waiting for his truck to charge. Volvo suggest:

Initially, most electric trucks will need to be charged overnight at their home depot. Using an AC On-board charger (43 kW) it will take around ten hours to charge the battery from empty to full. Using a DC charger (max 250 kW) this can be reduced to just two hours. https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/news-stories/insights/articles/2021/nov/How-a-good-charging-strategy-can-extend-an-electric-trucks-range.html

In 2020, standing costs for an articulated truck were around £34/hour. https://motortransport.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Cost-Tables-2020.pdf

It’s going to be horses for courses. If the lorry is returning to base every night then the EV wins hands down but for those long trans continental runs the HFCEV may possibly have some advantages. It doesn’t have to be either or. There may be room for both technologies in the commercial sphere and it would be foolish to reject the technology without giving it a chance to prove itself. 

Edit: for the small haulier with just a handful of vehicles returning to base each night, charging an EV truck may pose problems. I know of some small hauliers based on farms and old airfields. Is the supply to the site going to be up to charging multiple lorries? I believe the standard 3 phase supply to most commercial properties is limited to around 69kVA or 100 amps per phase. Will the local grid be able to cope or will expensive upgrades be needed?

Edit 2: if anyone thinks I am imagining problems then the chargers at Leicester Forest East services on the M1 have been out of service for months waiting for a grid upgrade. 

Martyn1981

michaels said:

Isn't the refuelling time saving the issue rather than the weight?

Yes that's the pretend argument for HFCV's. In the case of a HGV, you could triple or more your fuel costs to save the driver having to plug the truck in during the mandatory stop to eat some Mexican food ('taco break'  ), every 4.5hrs.

JKenH

Out of interest, does anyone know where an articulated electric truck can be charged in the UK away from their home base?

ABrass

I wonder if the price of hydrogen is higher at the moment. £15 a kg was the price a year ago, I'd be shocked if it was the same now?

Nearly all H2 is made from natural gas, that must have driven the cost up.

Grumpy_chap

The fuel cell thing is always a subject that I find amusing.

In my very first job, the R&D team were working on an electrolysis project that never worked as intended but there did come a point where it worked to do something entirely different.  The project was about to be scrapped when a Friday pub discussion someone mentioned that the whole thing should still go ahead, but it need to be run in reverse as a fuel cell.  That idea was sufficiently plausible that the Technical Director did take it forward and present a funding proposal to the Board.  It was agreed that the technical solution was viable but the MD shut it down as there would never be a place for fuel cells anyway.

As time passed, the R&D team of the time would lament that as the best opportunity ever lost to the business.

More time has now passed, and the view of the MD is starting to prove as the long lasting one...

JKenH

Used electric cars are hot, leasing deals are not

https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Report-on-BEV-resale-values.pdf

This report from Electric car lobby group,T & E, is as usual quite misleading but there were two useful charts.

The first shows how EV demand in the UK is skewed by leasing deals, a consequence of BIK and SalSac rules. If private buyer demand is only 10.8% (for new cars) when 34.2% of leasing deals are for EVs, it is inevitable  that there will be massive oversupply of EVs as they come off leases with a damaging effect on residual values.

The second chart shows that EV lease deals still attract a significant premium over the equivalent ICE alternative - an average of €233 or 57% across Europe which is going to wipe out any fuel savings for average mileage drivers.

michaels

JKenH said:

Used electric cars are hot, leasing deals are not

https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Report-on-BEV-resale-values.pdf

This report from Electric car lobby group,T & E, is as usual quite misleading but there were two useful charts.

The first shows how EV demand in the UK is skewed by leasing deals, a consequence of BIK and SalSac rules. If private buyer demand is only 10.8% (for new cars) when 34.2% of leasing deals are for EVs, it is inevitable  that there will be massive oversupply of EVs as they come off leases with a damaging effect on residual values.

The second chart shows that EV lease deals still attract a significant premium over the equivalent ICE alternative - an average of €233 or 57% across Europe which is going to wipe out any fuel savings for average mileage drivers.

Does that 57% include the tax breaks?

JKenH

michaels said:

JKenH said:

Used electric cars are hot, leasing deals are not

https://www.transportenvironment.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Report-on-BEV-resale-values.pdf

This report from Electric car lobby group,T & E, is as usual quite misleading but there were two useful charts.

The first shows how EV demand in the UK is skewed by leasing deals, a consequence of BIK and SalSac rules. If private buyer demand is only 10.8% (for new cars) when 34.2% of leasing deals are for EVs, it is inevitable  that there will be massive oversupply of EVs as they come off leases with a damaging effect on residual values.

The second chart shows that EV lease deals still attract a significant premium over the equivalent ICE alternative - an average of €233 or 57% across Europe which is going to wipe out any fuel savings for average mileage drivers.

Does that 57% include the tax breaks?

No, I don’t think so. It is the price quoted by the leasing company. Not everyone can get the tax breaks. I can’t. 

JKenH

Tesla £20k hatchback teased ahead of tonight's Investors Day event

Tesla could reveal its tipped Volkswagen ID 3-rivalling electric hatchback tonight at the firm’s Investors Day, where CEO Elon Musk will announce the firm’s third-generation EV platform.

A side-profile drawing of what could become Tesla's smallest, cheapest model was shown in a social media video announcing the opening of the firm's engineering headquarters. The firm's smallest hatchback is expected to go on sale at around £20,000 and appears to have three doors with much smaller, squatter proportions than the Tesla Model 3.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/tesla-%C2%A320k-hatchback-teased-ahead-tonights-investors-day-event