EV Discussion thread

JKenH

It’s high miles but this the first TM3 I have seen advertised below £20k. https://tesla-info.com/car/GB-e821adfa6723

It doesn’t seem that long since we broke through the £30k barrier. If Tesla really do release a sub £20k model with a £250 mile range then it’s going to be increasingly difficult to sell 4 year old TM3s above £20k. Which would you choose? 

At the end of the day 50% residual values after 100k miles and 4 years are still pretty good - better than one might expect with a £40k ICE car - so it’s not really surprising to see used prices down at this level. It’s just that we got used to seeing inflated used values when both new and used EVs were in short supply due to the chip crisis. After taking into account the the fuel savings on this 120k miles car (potentially £12k) it would still be a much cheaper proposition than running, say, a BMW 3 series for that distance. 

I think we just have to mentally adjust to EVs losing value like any other car and bear that in mind when buying them.

Edit: Tesla are offering a 2019 67k miles M3 with EAP in silver for £24,300. This includes Tesla’s own one year 10k miles warranty.

https://tesla-info.com/car/GB-5YJ3F7EA2KF444538

Edit 2: I had not previously been checking this but it seems Tesla are including EAP on their old used stock (at least the cheapest 30 cars listed which is all I have checked). 

The cheapest TM3P offered by Tesla is a 2020 model at £42,800 so it looks as though these are holding their value better.

Edit 3: I have also noticed that Tesla are offering discounts on what appear to be new cars (rather than demo cars). 

£1260 on the M3 https://tesla-info.com/inventory/UK/
£1450 - £1840 on the MY https://tesla-info.com/inventory/UK/

Edit 4: Tesla are also offering discounts on new M3 and MY models in Germany 
https://tesla-info.com/inventory/Germany/

https://tesla-info.com/inventory/Germany/

and in France, Italy and Norway.

Edit 5: from Tesla’s website

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/inventory/new/m3

JKenH

ZENITH EVXPERIENCE REPORT

The Zenith EVXperience Report is the largest ever survey of UK electric vehicle (EV) drivers looking at their actual lived experience of driving an EV.

Encouragingly, EV drivers are highly satisfied with the cost of running their vehicle, giving it a ranking of 8.5/10 on average. In contrast, satisfaction levels are much lower amongst petrol/diesel drivers, who gave it a ranking of 5.8/10.



https://fncdn.blob.core.windows.net/web-clean/1/root/satisfaction-levels-amongst-the-uks-ev-drivers-are-overwhelmingly-zenith-evx-survey-2023-dps-final.pdf

This purports to be a survey but reads like marketing material promoting EVs. I am not surprised by satisfaction ratings being higher for EVs on most metrics, but range - really? I can’t say I have ever heard anyone with an ICE car complaining about its range. The problem is that it then makes you doubt the rest of the results. I often think if EV enthusiasts were a little more objective and acknowledged that EVs have both good and bad points they would sound a bit more credible. 

1961Nick

Actually this survey mirrors my own experience - The range of the Tesla met my expectations whereas I was disappointed with the range of our Evoque.

The Evoque obviously goes further than the Tesla on a tank but this is a measurement of 'satisfaction with range' rather than 'absolute range'.

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

This purports to be a survey but reads like marketing material promoting EVs. I am not surprised by satisfaction ratings being higher for EVs on most metrics, but range - really? I can’t say I have ever heard anyone with an ICE car complaining about its range. 

I think that does make sense for a survey result.

IMO, it is because "how satisfied are you with your car's range?" for many ICE-drivers gets into the ask a silly-question category.

If I ask you to rate 1 - 10 "how satisfied are you with having nails on the end of your fingers?" the response is going to be informed by most people from a batch of uninvolved responses reflecting "it's not something I ever gave a second thought to" or "OK - does what it says on the tin" and that gets the 7 or 8 response score under NPS methodology.  An outcome of 7.5 is exactly the outcome expected when the vast majority of responses are either 7 or 8.  The number of outliers with health problems affecting or caused by finger nails or outliers that thing finger nails are the best thing since sliced bread is probably so low a proportion that the result is the exact centre of passive 7 or 8.

For the EV driver, they may well be conditioned to think they need to manage journeys around range and then find a better experience that they imagined at purchase.  This tends towards passive (7 or 8) or promoter (9 or 10) responses.  Sure, there will be a large number of negative experiences so it brings the outcome back towards the pure neutral outcome, but that result is an indicator of people finding the range is "OK - pretty much as expected" to "better than I expected".
My example here is my Brother and his i3.  Purchased as a second car for local journeys only and kept the ICE for most use.  Found confidence in the range of the i3 grew and now use it for journeys they did not imagine it would be suitable for and use it as the preferred choice unless they consciously assessed they need to use the ICE.  That "far better than expected" would result in a 9 or 10 score from many responders.

Annoyingly, I am now interested to know how people feel about having finger nails...

JKenH

1961Nick said:

Actually this survey mirrors my own experience - The range of the Tesla met my expectations whereas I was disappointed with the range of our Evoque.

The Evoque obviously goes further than the Tesla on a tank but this is a measurement of 'satisfaction with range' rather than 'absolute range'.

No doubt you will be ditching the Evoke then in favour of a second EV. 

michaels

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

Actually this survey mirrors my own experience - The range of the Tesla met my expectations whereas I was disappointed with the range of our Evoque.

The Evoque obviously goes further than the Tesla on a tank but this is a measurement of 'satisfaction with range' rather than 'absolute range'.

No doubt you will be ditching the Evoke then in favour of a second EV. 

WE have ditched our longer journey ice in favour of a second EV - not even a very long range or fast charging one TBH

silvercar

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

Actually this survey mirrors my own experience - The range of the Tesla met my expectations whereas I was disappointed with the range of our Evoque.

The Evoque obviously goes further than the Tesla on a tank but this is a measurement of 'satisfaction with range' rather than 'absolute range'.

No doubt you will be ditching the Evoke then in favour of a second EV. 

We've ditched our second car, an ICE, for  a short range EV. Mainly because driving the Telsa is so much better than we expected (smoother ride, adaptive cruise control and (nearly) one pedal driving are the key things). The Leaf isn't as sophisticated as the Tesla, but it is still fun/ easy to drive. The Telsa is the one we use for long journeys (range and better charging facilities) but we were happy not to have an ICE backup. 

When we first went for the EV it was because of the tax breaks on leasing and the cheaper running costs, we hadn't really considered the Telsa features mentioned above.

JKenH

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

1961Nick said:

Actually this survey mirrors my own experience - The range of the Tesla met my expectations whereas I was disappointed with the range of our Evoque.

The Evoque obviously goes further than the Tesla on a tank but this is a measurement of 'satisfaction with range' rather than 'absolute range'.

No doubt you will be ditching the Evoke then in favour of a second EV. 

We've ditched our second car, an ICE, for  a short range EV. Mainly because driving the Telsa is so much better than we expected (smoother ride, adaptive cruise control and (nearly) one pedal driving are the key things). The Leaf isn't as sophisticated as the Tesla, but it is still fun/ easy to drive. The Telsa is the one we use for long journeys (range and better charging facilities) but we were happy not to have an ICE backup. 

When we first went for the EV it was because of the tax breaks on leasing and the cheaper running costs, we hadn't really considered the Telsa features mentioned above.

Believe it or not, I was at one stage planning to go down the 2 EV route but my wife, although happy driving an EV, wanted to stay with a small ICE for her car. Public charging caused me so many problems though, that despite the financial advantages (having solar panels and only paying 5.5p/kWh for my home charging) and thoroughly enjoying driving my Leaf, I went back to ICE. Tesla owners don’t have those problems. 

JKenH

Grumpy_chap said:

JKenH said:

This purports to be a survey but reads like marketing material promoting EVs. I am not surprised by satisfaction ratings being higher for EVs on most metrics, but range - really? I can’t say I have ever heard anyone with an ICE car complaining about its range. 

I think that does make sense for a survey result.

IMO, it is because "how satisfied are you with your car's range?" for many ICE-drivers gets into the ask a silly-question category.

If I ask you to rate 1 - 10 "how satisfied are you with having nails on the end of your fingers?" the response is going to be informed by most people from a batch of uninvolved responses reflecting "it's not something I ever gave a second thought to" or "OK - does what it says on the tin" and that gets the 7 or 8 response score under NPS methodology.  An outcome of 7.5 is exactly the outcome expected when the vast majority of responses are either 7 or 8.  The number of outliers with health problems affecting or caused by finger nails or outliers that thing finger nails are the best thing since sliced bread is probably so low a proportion that the result is the exact centre of passive 7 or 8.

For the EV driver, they may well be conditioned to think they need to manage journeys around range and then find a better experience that they imagined at purchase.  This tends towards passive (7 or 8) or promoter (9 or 10) responses.  Sure, there will be a large number of negative experiences so it brings the outcome back towards the pure neutral outcome, but that result is an indicator of people finding the range is "OK - pretty much as expected" to "better than I expected".
My example here is my Brother and his i3.  Purchased as a second car for local journeys only and kept the ICE for most use.  Found confidence in the range of the i3 grew and now use it for journeys they did not imagine it would be suitable for and use it as the preferred choice unless they consciously assessed they need to use the ICE.  That "far better than expected" would result in a 9 or 10 score from many responders.

Annoyingly, I am now interested to know how people feel about having finger nails...

Thanks for that insight. I’d never come across NPS before. You  learn something new every day. 

I’d probably go 7 on the finger nails. Great for a scratch and removing paint but I can’t help thinking it would hurt less without them when I hit my finger with a hammer. I am usually sporting one black nail. 

Edit: I suppose it’s obvious if you make a decision to move to something new (EV) your satisfaction will be higher than someone in the same old (ICE) rut. Think sex and new girlfriend compared to sex and wife (at least that’s what they tell me). 

Grumpy_chap

JKenH said:

Thanks for that insight. you learn something new every day. I’d never come across NPS before. 

I’d probably go 7 on the finger nails. Great for a scratch and removing paint but I can’t help thinking it would hurt less without them when I hit my finger with a hammer. I am usually sporting one black nail. 

NPS is Net Promoter Score where 1 - 6 is detractor / negative, 7 - 8 is passive / neutral, 9 - 10 is promoter / positive / passion.

It does very much rely on experience against expectation.  When I was first introduced to the method (late 1980's), the buzz then was about Skoda out performing Rolls Royce and it was all down to the Skoda purchaser (of that time) having low expectations of the product whereas the Rolls Royce purchaser (then and now) was very demanding and very exacting.

One of the things about NPS is that you need to keep improving and innovating to maintain a high score as your "excellence / above expectation" will become the norm amongst your customers so just doing the same thing again will see the score slip from the "passion" space to the "passive" space.  That experience has to be continually enhanced without driving responders to negative space through affordability...