EV Discussion thread

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

ABrass said:

It's also about a vehicle. Not necessarily that they have room for all the vehicles their family own.

I have no data but suspect that any property with multiple EVs would be able to manage charging around a single charge point.

The number of households where multiple EV's need charging from empty to full regularly at the same time must be rather an edge case.  Even Mum, Dad and three adult children are unlikely to have multiple of them doing regular commutes of 150 mile  or more round trip daily.

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable assumption for most. Also, of course, many properties will have spaces for more than one vehicle, so they can (if needed) install 2 (or more(?)) smart chargers. When the grant for chargers existed, they would fund upto 2.

So whilst all 71% may not be able to charge at the same time, the logistics won't be too tricky.

Our front is a little compact, but we can squeeze both BEV's in, and on occasion have charged both at the same time, by using the granny lead. But to be honest, a teeny bit of forward planning would avoid the need, but with just a 28kWh battery, we can half fill the IONIQ on E7, so it's an easy/lazy solution.

The ~70% figure is one that comes up regularly on the forums for years, typically in response to the posts (claims) that most people won't be able to charge at, or near home/location they own or have access to.

Be nice to have charging solutions at work too. Given the system already exists for neighbours / locals to use howm chargers, and pay for it, then something at work must be possible. Maybe help to encourage PV installs too, but now I'm digressing.

Grumpy_chap

Martyn1981 said:

So whilst all 71% may not be able to charge at the same time, the logistics won't be too tricky.

Perhaps hidden in the detail of my upthread comment, but the key point I was making was that extrapolating 71% park in "space I own or that is allocated to me, such as a private driveway or garage" does not follow that 71% could easily charge at home.  I gave reasons why in my post yesterday.

shinytop

Grumpy_chap said:

ABrass said:

It's also about a vehicle. Not necessarily that they have room for all the vehicles their family own.

I have no data but suspect that any property with multiple EVs would be able to manage charging around a single charge point.

The number of households where multiple EV's need charging from empty to full regularly at the same time must be rather an edge case.  Even Mum, Dad and three adult children are unlikely to have multiple of them doing regular commutes of 150 mile  or more round trip daily.

The number of households that can afford multiple EVs is quite small. 

Grumpy_chap

shinytop said:

The number of households that can afford multiple EVs is quite small. 

At present.
That is a situation that will change substantially within the next 5 years.

JKenH

This appeared in the latest edition of Autocar.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/63f4aaed4f92c0001b85deec/13

I’ve not been able to find much else about it on line other than on Element 2’s own website and here https://www.h2green.co.uk/news/h2-green-element-two/

The plan is to have over 30 sites operational or under construction by the end of the year. Rather than pumping hydrogen in pipes around the country the filling stations will be fed by parked tankers on site.

silvercar

JKenH said:

This appeared in the latest edition of Autocar.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/63f4aaed4f92c0001b85deec/13

I’ve not been able to find much else about it on line other than on Element 2’s own website and here https://www.h2green.co.uk/news/h2-green-element-two/

The plan is to have over 30 sites operational or under construction by the end of the year. Rather than pumping hydrogen in pipes around the country the filling stations will be fed by parked tankers on site.

However beautifully futuristic that looks, one of the joys of an EV is being able to charge at home. To reverse to a model where you have to visit a refuelling station sounds like a step backwards. Combine that with the range anxiety that people face making long journeys in EVs, I can't see it catching on.

JKenH

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

This appeared in the latest edition of Autocar.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/63f4aaed4f92c0001b85deec/13

I’ve not been able to find much else about it on line other than on Element 2’s own website and here https://www.h2green.co.uk/news/h2-green-element-two/

The plan is to have over 30 sites operational or under construction by the end of the year. Rather than pumping hydrogen in pipes around the country the filling stations will be fed by parked tankers on site.

However beautifully futuristic that looks, one of the joys of an EV is being able to charge at home. To reverse to a model where you have to visit a refuelling station sounds like a step backwards. Combine that with the range anxiety that people face making long journeys in EVs, I can't see it catching on.

I think it is aimed at the HGV market, concentrating on installing filling stations at the nation’s 147 truck stops. 

JKenH

A quick back of a fag packet calculation suggests the fuel cost for a HGV will be around twice that of diesel - say £2/mile. This is based on a diesel usage of 9 mpg and  9kg/km for the H2 truck which will obviously vary with the weight of the lorry fir both technologies.
https://theicct.org/publication/fuel-cell-tractor-trailer-tech-fuel-jul22/

Tests with Volvo’s articulated electric trucks suggest consumption of around 1.76 kWh/mile which gives a considerable cost advantage based on current prices. I believe the current average price for rapid charging is in the region of 70p/kWh or around £1.23/mile. The cost of H2 may reduce in the future as RE costs fall and some improvements in fuel cell technology may reduce the consumption/mile. There is also a payload advantage with H2 trucks which will reduce the tons/mile cost which would need to be factored in in any comparison to battery electric trucks. And of course there will be a saving on charging time. 

Local HGV movements will still favour battery powered vehicles but there may be some advantages with H2 for long distance haulage.

It’s very early days with lots of unknowns but at least someone is giving it a try. In the early days of EVs everyone was dismissive but the technology has proved itself. It may yet happen with commercial H2 FCEVs (or then again it might not).

Edited 10.27 am with a few revisions.

Martyn1981

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

This appeared in the latest edition of Autocar.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/63f4aaed4f92c0001b85deec/13

I’ve not been able to find much else about it on line other than on Element 2’s own website and here https://www.h2green.co.uk/news/h2-green-element-two/

The plan is to have over 30 sites operational or under construction by the end of the year. Rather than pumping hydrogen in pipes around the country the filling stations will be fed by parked tankers on site.

However beautifully futuristic that looks, one of the joys of an EV is being able to charge at home. To reverse to a model where you have to visit a refuelling station sounds like a step backwards. Combine that with the range anxiety that people face making long journeys in EVs, I can't see it catching on.

Yep, for cars and light vehicles H2 is looking like a busted flush, or 'still' looking like a busted flush. But for some HGV roles, there are still some hoping it may work.

It's really tricky though, as fuel costs will be 3 to 4 times more than a BEV, given that HFCV's only get about 25% of the original leccy, to the road, due to losses with the electrolysers, then losses compressing or cooling the H2, then any transport issues if not produced on site*, and then the fuel cell losses of about 50%. So if the H2 is green H2, it will, even ignoring all of the equipment and processing costs, reflect 3 to 4 times as much original leccy cost input.

*H2 is hard to transport, current 'tube trailers' can carry about 400-500kg of H2, so almost all of the weight is actually the trailer itself. Takes about 8 to 10 such trailers to transport the equivalent of a petrol tanker, so you also have to consider the running costs of those vehicles, and the fuel they, themselves, are consuming.

Nikola did launch a HFCV truck about 5yrs ago, suggesting it could match diesel costs, given its 1,200 mile range, and being 1,000lb to 2,000lb lighter. But their figures were made up, and the revised stats are now 600 miles and 1,000lb to 2,000lb heavier, despite having reduced the size of the battery from 320kWh to ~250kWh (from memory). Though they now have a BEV truck, the Nikola Tre, built by IVECO.

To help BEV and HFCV vehicles, the EU have given them an additional 2tonne max weight, and the US an additional 2,000lbs (1 short ton). But the majority of loads (70%-80%) are volume limited, not max weight anyway.


Article here on Hyundai's HFCV rigid truck, it can carry 31kg of H2, but also packs 200kWh of batts.

Martyn1981

Martyn1981 said:

silvercar said:

JKenH said:

This appeared in the latest edition of Autocar.

https://go.readly.com/magazines/5321d063abb90f06c300001c/63f4aaed4f92c0001b85deec/13

I’ve not been able to find much else about it on line other than on Element 2’s own website and here https://www.h2green.co.uk/news/h2-green-element-two/

The plan is to have over 30 sites operational or under construction by the end of the year. Rather than pumping hydrogen in pipes around the country the filling stations will be fed by parked tankers on site.

However beautifully futuristic that looks, one of the joys of an EV is being able to charge at home. To reverse to a model where you have to visit a refuelling station sounds like a step backwards. Combine that with the range anxiety that people face making long journeys in EVs, I can't see it catching on.

Article here on Hyundai's HFCV rigid truck, it can carry 31kg of H2, but also packs 200kWh of batts.

Clearly I'm losing it, as I've just sent myself down a rabbit hole - but I wondered how the weight of that H2 to batteries compared in that Hyundai.

So some quick Googling, which may be dodgy in itself, but it seems a H2 tank to hold 4-6kg of H2, weighs about 100kg. The Hyundai has 7 of those tanks. So allowing a bit extra for fixings, pipes etc (tbh, just wanted to make the maths easier), let's call it 800kg.

Batts, at the upper end, are close to 250Wh/kg, so for 800kg you could carry (another) 200kWh of batts. You'd also save some weight from removing the HFC kit, and presumably the rest of the leccy parts, motors, inverters etc, could remain the same.

So, 400kWh of batts, with Tesla managing less than 2kWh/mile for an almost max weight* artic truck (81,000lbs v's 82k limit), so let's hope for 1.5kWh/mile for a smaller, lighter rigid(?), means 266 miles, v's the 248 est. for the HFC truck. Looks similar to me, but I jumped through so many hoops I may have gotten myself lost.

*Edit, that's max weight for the US at 80,00lb / 82,000lb BEV, whilst the EU is 44tn / 46tn (~97k to ~101k lb).