EV Discussion thread

Petriix

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

JKenH

Interest in EVs is losing its spark but demand for cars is holding up, new research finds

More than a fifth of drivers plan to buy a new or used car this year – the same proportion as last year, despite the cost-of-living crisis.

That’s according to new research from AA Cars, whose poll of 15,739 adults found that 22 per cent of them were in the market for a car, even though many people are having to tighten the purse strings.

But the proportion of those looking to buy a new or used EV has fallen from 25 per cent in 2022 – when fuel prices soared to record highs – to 18 per cent in 2023 as electricity prices continue to rise.

AA Cars said that in the last three months of 2022, EVs accounted for 4.8 per cent of searches on its used car platform – down from 11.2 per cent over the same period in 2021.

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/interest-in-evs-is-losing-its-spark-but-demand-for-cars-is-holding-up-new-research-finds/280211

And the Telegraph lays the blame squarely at the government’s door

British drivers have been betrayed in the electric car race

The UK also has one of the most aggressive targets for running petrol and diesel models off the road with an outright ban on the sale of new internal combustion engine vehicles from the end of the decade.

And yet it is emphatically failing to put in place the infrastructure or provide the state support required to enable drivers to make the shift so that its ambitious green agenda can stand any chance of being fulfilled.

The Government’s shortcomings will undermine confidence even further, pushing back the shift years, if not decades, as drivers become increasingly disillusioned and frustrated at the lack of progress.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/02/23/british-drivers-have-betrayed-electric-car-race/

Officer_Dibble

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

Could you point to a single "far right" article in the Mail? I know a journalist who's worked for both the Mail and the Guardian. If what you say's true it's surprising that the Mail was willing to employ her given her ethnicity. She's actually centre-left, felt very at home at the Guardian (except on trans issues as she's a feminist), but had to hold her nose on occasions to write in terms acceptable to the centre-right Mail. She'd never have worked for a far right paper.

In EV terms, you could define the Guardian's position as right wing, in that supporting EVs is against the interests of the working class poor who are being priced out of mobility. To buy and run an EV effectively you need a considerable amount of cash to buy one (or a "high status" job with company car) and off street parking at home. Equally though many would deem an anti Net Zero position as far right (though it isn't) and from that point of view, assuming that there's a green argument for the shift to EVs, the Guardian's position is most definitely left wing. So at that point you disappear in a puff of logic and agree that the traditional left/right terms have gone right out of the window.

silvercar

Officer_Dibble said:

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

Could you point to a single "far right" article in the Mail? I know a journalist who's worked for both the Mail and the Guardian. If what you say's true it's surprising that the Mail was willing to employ her given her ethnicity. She's actually centre-left, felt very at home at the Guardian (except on trans issues as she's a feminist), but had to hold her nose on occasions to write in terms acceptable to the centre-right Mail. She'd never have worked for a far right paper.

In EV terms, you could define the Guardian's position as right wing, in that supporting EVs is against the interests of the working class poor who are being priced out of mobility. To buy and run an EV effectively you need a considerable amount of cash to buy one (or a "high status" job with company car) and off street parking at home. Equally though many would deem an anti Net Zero position as far right (though it isn't) and from that point of view, assuming that there's a green argument for the shift to EVs, the Guardian's position is most definitely left wing. So at that point you disappear in a puff of logic and agree that the traditional left/right terms have gone right out of the window.

Company car schemes with salary sacrifice have to be open to all employees. There is no requirement to have a high status job. Given the low BIK and that a SS scheme means no repair/ maintenance/ often insurance worries, it should be attractive to all, not just high earners. 

michaels

silvercar said:

Officer_Dibble said:

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

Could you point to a single "far right" article in the Mail? I know a journalist who's worked for both the Mail and the Guardian. If what you say's true it's surprising that the Mail was willing to employ her given her ethnicity. She's actually centre-left, felt very at home at the Guardian (except on trans issues as she's a feminist), but had to hold her nose on occasions to write in terms acceptable to the centre-right Mail. She'd never have worked for a far right paper.

In EV terms, you could define the Guardian's position as right wing, in that supporting EVs is against the interests of the working class poor who are being priced out of mobility. To buy and run an EV effectively you need a considerable amount of cash to buy one (or a "high status" job with company car) and off street parking at home. Equally though many would deem an anti Net Zero position as far right (though it isn't) and from that point of view, assuming that there's a green argument for the shift to EVs, the Guardian's position is most definitely left wing. So at that point you disappear in a puff of logic and agree that the traditional left/right terms have gone right out of the window.

Company car schemes with salary sacrifice have to be open to all employees. There is no requirement to have a high status job. Given the low BIK and that a SS scheme means no repair/ maintenance/ often insurance worries, it should be attractive to all, not just high earners. 

But they are more lucrative if you are a 40% tax payer - perhaps they should be capped at 20% relief or everyone given the equivalent of 40%?

Also are there any EV rentals in the 150-250 price range that those on lower income might typically pay for finance on a second hand small car.

silvercar

michaels said:

silvercar said:

Officer_Dibble said:

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

Could you point to a single "far right" article in the Mail? I know a journalist who's worked for both the Mail and the Guardian. If what you say's true it's surprising that the Mail was willing to employ her given her ethnicity. She's actually centre-left, felt very at home at the Guardian (except on trans issues as she's a feminist), but had to hold her nose on occasions to write in terms acceptable to the centre-right Mail. She'd never have worked for a far right paper.

In EV terms, you could define the Guardian's position as right wing, in that supporting EVs is against the interests of the working class poor who are being priced out of mobility. To buy and run an EV effectively you need a considerable amount of cash to buy one (or a "high status" job with company car) and off street parking at home. Equally though many would deem an anti Net Zero position as far right (though it isn't) and from that point of view, assuming that there's a green argument for the shift to EVs, the Guardian's position is most definitely left wing. So at that point you disappear in a puff of logic and agree that the traditional left/right terms have gone right out of the window.

Company car schemes with salary sacrifice have to be open to all employees. There is no requirement to have a high status job. Given the low BIK and that a SS scheme means no repair/ maintenance/ often insurance worries, it should be attractive to all, not just high earners. 

But they are more lucrative if you are a 40% tax payer - perhaps they should be capped at 20% relief or everyone given the equivalent of 20%?

Also are there any EV rentals in the 150-250 price range that those on lower income might typically pay for finance on a second hand small car.

Just because they are more lucrative for a higher tax payer, doesn't mean the standard tax payer is losing out.

I am paying just over £300 (net net figure) for a relatively high spec 2023 Leaf, so I suspect that there must be something around 250. That £300 includes all servicing maintenance and insurance.

Martyn1981

silvercar said:

michaels said:

silvercar said:

Officer_Dibble said:

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

Could you point to a single "far right" article in the Mail? I know a journalist who's worked for both the Mail and the Guardian. If what you say's true it's surprising that the Mail was willing to employ her given her ethnicity. She's actually centre-left, felt very at home at the Guardian (except on trans issues as she's a feminist), but had to hold her nose on occasions to write in terms acceptable to the centre-right Mail. She'd never have worked for a far right paper.

In EV terms, you could define the Guardian's position as right wing, in that supporting EVs is against the interests of the working class poor who are being priced out of mobility. To buy and run an EV effectively you need a considerable amount of cash to buy one (or a "high status" job with company car) and off street parking at home. Equally though many would deem an anti Net Zero position as far right (though it isn't) and from that point of view, assuming that there's a green argument for the shift to EVs, the Guardian's position is most definitely left wing. So at that point you disappear in a puff of logic and agree that the traditional left/right terms have gone right out of the window.

Company car schemes with salary sacrifice have to be open to all employees. There is no requirement to have a high status job. Given the low BIK and that a SS scheme means no repair/ maintenance/ often insurance worries, it should be attractive to all, not just high earners. 

But they are more lucrative if you are a 40% tax payer - perhaps they should be capped at 20% relief or everyone given the equivalent of 20%?

Also are there any EV rentals in the 150-250 price range that those on lower income might typically pay for finance on a second hand small car.

Just because they are more lucrative for a higher tax payer, doesn't mean the standard tax payer is losing out.

I am paying just over £300 (net net figure) for a relatively high spec 2023 Leaf, so I suspect that there must be something around 250. That £300 includes all servicing maintenance and insurance.

That's interesting to know. And whilst of course leccy prices are currently abnormaly high, you'd (the Royal you) typically see some fuel savings too v's an ICEV.

shinytop

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

You think the Guardian is centre-right?  Wow!

As @JKenH said

"It is quite normal to regard one’s own views as centrist and views that differ from one’s own as being extreme. Realising you are doing that is not always easy."

Petriix

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

The Guardian is fairly objectively centre-right/liberal. There is no mainstream left-wing publication. The Overton Window has shifted so far that it's not really worth trying to frame a conversation in traditional left/right terms. Yes, the Mail is far right. 

You think the Guardian is centre-right?  Wow!

As @JKenH said

"It is quite normal to regard one’s own views as centrist and views that differ from one’s own as being extreme. Realising you are doing that is not always easy."

Given that the current economic paradigm is the most right wing in modern political history, the Guardian's general support of the status quo (and indeed any publication's failure to strongly challenging the accepted 'norm') places it firmly to the right of centre.

All you have to do is consider how John Major's government would be viewed today. He was definitely right of centre at the time with John Smith's Labour a similar distance to the left.

The Mail continues to assault basic fact with an extreme bias to the right. For example, when Labour proposed an increase to the top rate of tax, the Mail headline screamed "thousands to be worse off" (or something very similar). While technically true, ignoring the *millions* who would have been better off, made the headline highly misleading. There are countless such examples.

We are living in extreme times with enormous change required to come anywhere close to becoming sustainable. The status quo is broken and needs to be challenged. 

I'm optimistic. I believe intelligent people can collaborate to achieve great things. Leaving profit as the main driver of progress is an oxymoron. It's impossible to have permanent economic growth in a world of finite resources.

paul991

i do not think its a left or right wing thing but a green bias