EV range

Petriix

shinytop said:

The thing that annoys me is the pretence that the BEV ownership experience will be the same as ICEV ownership in terms of convenience and expense.  It won't be; BEVs will be more expensive and less convenient. That doesn't mean we shouldn't change to BEVs but let's stop pretending.  It's going to be very difficult for some people, mostly those with the least money.  

You're making some big assumptions there. Switching to an EV has been both cheaper and more convenient for me.

When you add up all the time I spent driving to and from petrol stations, queuing, then standing there like an idiot holding the nozzle, then queuing again to pay etc. it's significantly more time than I spend plugging my car in when I get home and occasionally changing a setting in the app.

Then remember all those oil changes, faffing around under the car replacing the exhaust pipe, brake pads and disks, etc... 

MouldyOldDough

Deleted_User said:

MouldyOldDough said:

What about people with poor mobility?
Are we supposed to sit in our cars for the hours that they are on charge for?
The fact is that at the moment - I can call in at my local garage and someone fills my car for me - I am on my way within 5 minutes but if I have to wait an hour plus to top up - what do I do in the meantime?
Also how do I plug my car into the socket?
Will there be attendants to help? 

I’m sure help would be readily available for the disabled. Why wouldn’t it be? I would think the new EV stations would have a disabled charging bay where assistance will be available. 
Rapid chargers generally take no longer than 30 minutes to charge up, not hours. 

Next scenario please?

You only have to look at the placing of some charge points - on kerbs to realise the problem - the weight of the cables is pretty substantial too.

Unless there is some way of preventing this from happening - the few dedicated "disabled charging points" will undoubtedly be used by everyone else - meaning that a queue will build up to use these, just as    "normal" charging points - the same as supposedly dedicated disabled parking spaces nowadays !

So we've got to change our total outlook on travel and travelling times - in that, at present - I drive some 150 miles on the motorway and return in approx 5 hours of actual driving on one tank full - in future - I have to add, perhaps another hour to this (assuming that I can find a free (and working) "disabled" charge point ?

Technology was supposed to improve and speed things up - quite the opposite of what is happening

 https://www.ridc.org.uk/transport/going-electric

Unbelievably, there is just one fully accessible charging point in the UK, representing 0.003% of all those available. Currently, only 25% of drivers with a disability feel comfortable driving an EV. If changes were made to the infrastructure of the charging system, that number would rise to 61%.

MacPingu1986

MouldyOldDough said:

Deleted_User said:

MouldyOldDough said:

What about people with poor mobility?
Are we supposed to sit in our cars for the hours that they are on charge for?
The fact is that at the moment - I can call in at my local garage and someone fills my car for me - I am on my way within 5 minutes but if I have to wait an hour plus to top up - what do I do in the meantime?
Also how do I plug my car into the socket?
Will there be attendants to help? 

I’m sure help would be readily available for the disabled. Why wouldn’t it be? I would think the new EV stations would have a disabled charging bay where assistance will be available. 
Rapid chargers generally take no longer than 30 minutes to charge up, not hours. 

Next scenario please?

You only have to look at the placing of some charge points - on kerbs to realise the problem - the weight of the cables is pretty substantial too.

Unless there is some way of preventing this from happening - the few dedicated "disabled charging points" will undoubtedly be used by everyone else - meaning that a queue will build up to use these, just as    "normal" charging points - the same as supposedly dedicated disabled parking spaces nowadays !

So we've got to change our total outlook on travel and travelling times - in that, at present - I drive some 150 miles on the motorway and return in approx 5 hours of actual driving on one tank full - in future - I have to add, perhaps another hour to this (assuming that I can find a free (and working) "disabled" charge point ?

Technology was supposed to improve and speed things up - quite the opposite of what is happening

 https://www.ridc.org.uk/transport/going-electric

This was already covered above... you don't need to add an hour to your travel time - you can rapid charge in c30 mins or less on your journey OR you can fully charge at your destination which adds no time, OR as ranges continue to increase a 300mile round trip won't require refueling.

*and* you're not factoring in that this type of journey is very a-typical for the average driver who, out of c400 journeys a year, only has 2-3 journeys per year over 100 miles. Slight tweaks to the very occasional longer journey will, for the vast majority of people, be worth it for the cost and convenience benefits of an EV for the other 99% of journeys.

Jenni_D

I don't think it's worth bothering to reply to MOD any further ... we're just going round and round and round and round ........... 🙄

MX5huggy

Jenni_D said:

I don't think it's worth bothering to reply to MOD any further ... we're just going round and round and round and round ........... 🙄

But how often are we stopping to charge? 

shinytop

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

The thing that annoys me is the pretence that the BEV ownership experience will be the same as ICEV ownership in terms of convenience and expense.  It won't be; BEVs will be more expensive and less convenient. That doesn't mean we shouldn't change to BEVs but let's stop pretending.  It's going to be very difficult for some people, mostly those with the least money.  

You're making some big assumptions there. Switching to an EV has been both cheaper and more convenient for me.

When you add up all the time I spent driving to and from petrol stations, queuing, then standing there like an idiot holding the nozzle, then queuing again to pay etc. it's significantly more time than I spend plugging my car in when I get home and occasionally changing a setting in the app.

Then remember all those oil changes, faffing around under the car replacing the exhaust pipe, brake pads and disks, etc... 

EVs work for you and a lot of other people and that's good.  But at the moment you can get a reliable 4-500 mile range ICE car for a few thousand pounds that you can top up in a few minutes at any number of public fuel stations and that's not going to be the case with BEVs for a long time, if ever.  I think sometimes we (and I include myself) forget how little spare money (and/or access to credit) a lot of people have.  Even the money to install a home charger is out of reach for many people even if they had the space.

I could afford an EV but at the moment my car use would mean too much inconvenience as well a lot more expense so at the moment I won't be getting one. 

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Deleted_User said:

MouldyOldDough said:

What about people with poor mobility?
Are we supposed to sit in our cars for the hours that they are on charge for?
The fact is that at the moment - I can call in at my local garage and someone fills my car for me - I am on my way within 5 minutes but if I have to wait an hour plus to top up - what do I do in the meantime?
Also how do I plug my car into the socket?
Will there be attendants to help? 

I’m sure help would be readily available for the disabled. Why wouldn’t it be? I would think the new EV stations would have a disabled charging bay where assistance will be available. 
Rapid chargers generally take no longer than 30 minutes to charge up, not hours. 

Next scenario please?

So we've got to change our total outlook on travel and travelling times - in that, at present - I drive some 150 miles on the motorway and return in approx 5 hours of actual driving on one tank full - in future - I have to add, perhaps another hour to this (assuming that I can find a free (and working) "disabled" charge point ?

If you're only traveling 300 miles you probably won't even need to stop to recharge. There are EV's now that can do that, and almost certainly plenty of them available by the time you can't get a new diesel car. It's really not the problem you're trying to make it.

Even if you do need to charge, you can probably do it whilst you're at your destination, or spend under 30 minutes at a rapid charger - remember you don't even need to fill the battery, just add enough range to get you home.

MacPingu1986

shinytop said:

Petriix said:

shinytop said:

The thing that annoys me is the pretence that the BEV ownership experience will be the same as ICEV ownership in terms of convenience and expense.  It won't be; BEVs will be more expensive and less convenient. That doesn't mean we shouldn't change to BEVs but let's stop pretending.  It's going to be very difficult for some people, mostly those with the least money.  

You're making some big assumptions there. Switching to an EV has been both cheaper and more convenient for me.

When you add up all the time I spent driving to and from petrol stations, queuing, then standing there like an idiot holding the nozzle, then queuing again to pay etc. it's significantly more time than I spend plugging my car in when I get home and occasionally changing a setting in the app.

Then remember all those oil changes, faffing around under the car replacing the exhaust pipe, brake pads and disks, etc... 

EVs work for you and a lot of other people and that's good.  But at the moment you can get a reliable 4-500 mile range ICE car for a few thousand pounds that you can top up in a few minutes at any number of public fuel stations and that's not going to be the case with BEVs for a long time, if ever.  I think sometimes we (and I include myself) forget how little spare money (and/or access to credit) a lot of people have.  Even the money to install a home charger is out of reach for many people even if they had the space.

I could afford an EV but at the moment my car use would mean too much inconvenience as well a lot more expense so at the moment I won't be getting one. 

As the economies of scale get better, the technology increases, etc... EV prices are likely to decrease in exactly the same way as ICE cars went from being the preserve of the wealthy to modern mass ownership.

Everyone's financial situation is different, people will have different thresholds for making the switch, how they weigh up (currently) higher upfront costs against on-going savings - that's true of almost *any* product in any sector. 

That an EV isn't affordable for [Person A] right now isn't an argument against EV's any moreso than someone on a very low income not being able to afford *any* car at all, being an argument against ICE cars.

troffasky

Ergates said:

There's nothing special about charging an EV that means it wouldn't work with any of those options.

Sticking to the difference between EV and ICE here - EV charge points are largely unattended, filling stations are not. So if you need someone to plug it in for you then your charging options are much more restricted.

Maybe some day in the future, you can glide up to a charging point and the built-in robotic arm will plug it in for you.

Herzlos

Deleted_User said:

Herzlos said:

troffasky said:

Jenni_D said:

I don't think it's worth bothering to reply to MOD any further

Generally speaking, yes. MOD is just concern trolling, but the question about how those of limited mobility will use charging points is a valid one.

The mobility point is actually a good one, buried in trolling, and definitely needs some additional thought or consideration.

How do we make it easier for people who can't get out of the car or carry a cable, that doesn't rely on public good will?

Like I said, there will be EV stations replacing petrol stations which offer the same issue as having to have a person come out and do it for you. It’s exactly the same obstacle. 

Oh I get that, and that should satisfy most use cases.

I was thinking more in terms of how I've never seen a disabled charging bay yet, for instance.  Not that I'd really expect them yet because there's usually at least 4x as many disabled bays as charging bays at the moment.

The same applies to larger vehicles, there are very few bays that can take a larger van or a vehicle with a trailer. Again not strictly a problem yet since they are so rare. For example, you can get an electric Vivaro which is 5.3m long (50cm longer than a parking space) with a charging socket at the font, so unless you have a long enough cable you can't even reverse in and that might make getting back out pretty awkward in a tight car park.