EV range

MouldyOldDough

Roughly 60 % of UK properties have off street parking - but at how many of these is it possible to charge an EV ?

Grumpy_chap

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

However off-street parking means there's already a space for the car, so no need to dig up gardens. Given a dedicated space for the car, it's relatively trivial to run power out to it to charge a car.

Sure, there will be some edge cases where the off-street parking is a small flat space at the bottom of a 500ft garden, but for most people with an off street parking space, there will be some way to charge a car at some point before the resident will be forced to move to an EV.

You're trying desperately to find problems that don't really exist.

No, no I am not.  The previous poster stated "people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage" and I have simply asked them to provide evidence that the people without home charging are a minority.

The response was that 99% homes have mains electricity and 60% have off-street parking so that is 60% have home charging.

This question was raised in a previous thread fairly recently and it then transpired that he 60% with off-street parking included all houses with front garden that could be converted to provide a parking space.  You and I have agreed that is not off-street parking.  We also need to remember that could is not just a practical could but also a policy could - my road, for example, the LA have stopped all planning applications for new dropped kerbs.  Ironically under a policy to protect the environment.

I agree that the majority of houses with off-street parking can probably run a power supply relatively easily.  But houses does not equal homes or people.

So, to establish whether the number of people without access to home charging is a minority (as stated by the other poster), we need to know:

• How many homes are there in the country?
• How many home EV charge points have been installed?
• How many homes have off-street parking within easy access to electricity in the dwelling?

For the sake of this, I am willing to include access to home charging that includes off-street parking within reach of a standard extension lead run through a window and not creating trip hazard.  That is not an ideal solution but anyone in that scenario that buys an EV would reasonably be assumed to get an easier EV point installed within a short timeframe.

Car_54

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

However off-street parking means there's already a space for the car, so no need to dig up gardens. Given a dedicated space for the car, it's relatively trivial to run power out to it to charge a car.

Sure, there will be some edge cases where the off-street parking is a small flat space at the bottom of a 500ft garden, but for most people with an off street parking space, there will be some way to charge a car at some point before the resident will be forced to move to an EV.

You're trying desperately to find problems that don't really exist.

I live in a flat in a block of nine, with an off-street parking space. Like millions of others in Greater London.
To install charging facilities would not be trivial. Apart from digging up the car park for cabling, it would need nine separate power connections to the mains, each with its own meter. Getting the other flat-owners to agree to the expenditure required would be next to impossible, especially since some don't live here and others don't drive.

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

DB1904 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Surprisingly yes he is - he regularly drives some 300 miles to see relatives
But in any case - there must be millions like him that physically are unable to charge at home 

Despite having essentially refuted this at least 5 times, let's try again.

There's about 6.6 million houses (about 25%) without off-street parking.

However there are also about 6.6 million houses that don't have a car. Now there's not a 1:1 relation to those, as plenty of people without off street parking have cars, and plenty of people with off street parking that don't have cars.
If we assume car ownership and off street parking are based loosely on income, we can assume that the majority of those who don't have a car also don't have parking, no?
But even is we assume generously that half of the houses without parking do have cars, we're at about 3.3 million, so your point is technically correct, but still completely irrelevant.

Of those people, most will presumably do an average mileage of about 150/week, which is about the range of an average EV available new now.
The majority of those people with a car will take it somewhere other than someone elses' house (which might have charging), that have or are near public car parks, and so there's a high likelihood that their destination will have charging facilities.

The very few people who can't charge their car at home and can't charge it at any of their destinations will need to go and visit a dedicated charging facility when needed, but given they don't seem to take the car anywhere it's safe to assume they don't need to do that very often. Heck, for low enough mileage they can probably trickle charge the thing.

Of course, right now there isn't enough infastructure for everyone to charge everywhere yet, but 10 years ago there was essentially none and we're still at least 20 years away from everyone driving an EV, so I'm pretty confident the infrastructure will be fine. Capitalism pretty much guarantees it.

Assumptions and Guesses !

Yup, that's why I use words like "assume". Do you want to try and refute any of it? Can you see any bad assumptions there or able to provide anything that proves me wrong?

Such as the fact that the UK is already running on empty by way of electrical power and with a few milliion EVs trying to charge - WHERE IS THE POWER COMING FROM ?

Unless we have rolling blackouts to allow people to charge their vehicles - I see no way forwards - don't forget that in a few years people are going to have to heat their homes with electricity as well - mains gas is being phased out for heating.

Will every home have to have solar panels and ground source heat pumps - again what about flats and people without gardens ?

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

DB1904 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Surprisingly yes he is - he regularly drives some 300 miles to see relatives
But in any case - there must be millions like him that physically are unable to charge at home 

Despite having essentially refuted this at least 5 times, let's try again.

There's about 6.6 million houses (about 25%) without off-street parking.

However there are also about 6.6 million houses that don't have a car. Now there's not a 1:1 relation to those, as plenty of people without off street parking have cars, and plenty of people with off street parking that don't have cars.
If we assume car ownership and off street parking are based loosely on income, we can assume that the majority of those who don't have a car also don't have parking, no?
But even is we assume generously that half of the houses without parking do have cars, we're at about 3.3 million, so your point is technically correct, but still completely irrelevant.

Of those people, most will presumably do an average mileage of about 150/week, which is about the range of an average EV available new now.
The majority of those people with a car will take it somewhere other than someone elses' house (which might have charging), that have or are near public car parks, and so there's a high likelihood that their destination will have charging facilities.

The very few people who can't charge their car at home and can't charge it at any of their destinations will need to go and visit a dedicated charging facility when needed, but given they don't seem to take the car anywhere it's safe to assume they don't need to do that very often. Heck, for low enough mileage they can probably trickle charge the thing.

Of course, right now there isn't enough infastructure for everyone to charge everywhere yet, but 10 years ago there was essentially none and we're still at least 20 years away from everyone driving an EV, so I'm pretty confident the infrastructure will be fine. Capitalism pretty much guarantees it.

Assumptions and Guesses !

Yup, that's why I use words like "assume". Do you want to try and refute any of it? Can you see any bad assumptions there or able to provide anything that proves me wrong?

Such as the fact that the UK is already running on empty by way of electrical power and with a few milliion EVs trying to charge - WHERE IS THE POWER COMING FROM ?

Unless we have rolling blackouts to allow people to charge their vehicles - I see no way forwards - don't forget that in a few years people are going to have to heat their homes with electricity as well - mains gas is being phased out for heating.

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars

the headline starts

"Electricity Grids Can Handle Electric Vehicles Easily"

Why do you keep regurgitating such easily disproved nonsense? Did you do even the briefest internet search?

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Roughly 60 % of UK properties have off street parking - but at how many of these is it possible to charge an EV ?

Now, or in about 2050 when they'll all need to?

Grumpy_chap

MouldyOldDough said:

Such as the fact that the UK is already running on empty by way of electrical power and with a few milliion EVs trying to charge - WHERE IS THE POWER COMING FROM ?

According to National Grid, the electricity supply infrastructure can cope:
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars

I actually think this thing about adequate power supply capacity is a total red-herring.  There may be local areas where the network needs reinforcing but, across the nation, we'll be fine.  I think it is a bit like the many objections to work from home raised by employers citing inadequate internet capacity, inadequate IT security.  Then, bang, we all went WFH and it just worked.

RichardD1970

Such as the fact that the UK is already running on empty by way of electrical power and with a few milliion EVs trying to charge - WHERE IS THE POWER COMING FROM ?

Unless we have rolling blackouts to allow people to charge their vehicles - I see no way forwards - don't forget that in a few years people are going to have to heat their homes with electricity as well - mains gas is being phased out for heating.

Will every home have to have solar panels and ground source heat pumps - again what about flats and people without gardens ?

Err, no not fact. https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

• How many homes are there in the country?
• How many home EV charge points have been installed?
• How many homes have off-street parking within easy access to electricity in the dwelling?

For the sake of this, I am willing to include access to home charging that includes off-street parking within reach of a standard extension lead run through a window and not creating trip hazard.  That is not an ideal solution but anyone in that scenario that buys an EV would reasonably be assumed to get an easier EV point installed within a short timeframe.

There are about 24 million homes. There are no figures on how many already have EV charge points or can easily have them.
But they aren't all needed now, nor will they likely be needed in 20+ years.

They just need to be installed to keep up with demand. All new builds since 2021 need to have a charging point.

Everyone will manage. As has been repeatedly mentioned, not everyone will even need a charging point at home if they take the car somewhere else with charging often enough.

Herzlos

Car_54 said:

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

However off-street parking means there's already a space for the car, so no need to dig up gardens. Given a dedicated space for the car, it's relatively trivial to run power out to it to charge a car.

Sure, there will be some edge cases where the off-street parking is a small flat space at the bottom of a 500ft garden, but for most people with an off street parking space, there will be some way to charge a car at some point before the resident will be forced to move to an EV.

You're trying desperately to find problems that don't really exist.

I live in a flat in a block of nine, with an off-street parking space. Like millions of others in Greater London.
To install charging facilities would not be trivial. Apart from digging up the car park for cabling, it would need nine separate power connections to the mains, each with its own meter. Getting the other flat-owners to agree to the expenditure required would be next to impossible, especially since some don't live here and others don't drive.

It may not be trivial, but I reckon you could have it dug, installed, and replaced within maybe 2-3 days. Your hardest task would be getting everyone to agree and pay up.