EV range

[Deleted User]

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Use one of these, if you get a big enough EV you can probably get it in the boot or on a trailer behind the car.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/impax-im2800ifg-3000w-inverter-frame-generator-240v/859hp

You can charge up wherever you want, full and complete freedom with an EV, no queuing at charge points, just stop anytime and charge.

I'm not sure if EV manufacturers have missed a trick by not including one of these in the car or at least allowing you to charge up with it when driving to keep things topped up.

Petriix

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

It's frankly ridiculous to use 'I would not want to ask them' as a reason. 150 miles each way is withn ideal EV range. Personally I wouldn't consider visiting someone who wouldn't allow me to charge (I'd obviously offer to pay the cost).

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

[Deleted User]

This thread is ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow with demand. Petrol stations will be EV stations. Otherwise petrol stations will go out of business. 

Tesla are even starting to open up their superchargers as Elon Musk knows that once all manufacturers are up and running he will be supplying a good majority of the batteries as he will have everything in place to do so and will be the major player in EV stations. 

It does not make any business sense to not keep up with the infrastructure. 

This is all rather silly, it’s like arguing with kids!

DB1904

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

Petriix

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

It's actually a totally valid question, and one which people should fully understand before choosing an EV. The real answer is that an EV doesn't 'have a range' at all. The quoted 'range' is usually the WLTP result, but there's also the 'GOM' (Guess'o'meter) range displayed in the vehicle itself which is can be highly misleading. 

Actual range varies massively depending on factors including speed, journey type, driving style, temperature and weather conditions.

A typical EV is actually most efficient at somewhere between 15 and 30 mph and, in ideal conditions with the HVAC off, it's possible to vastly exceed the WLTP range.

I've managed to push my standard range MG5 to over 250 miles despite having a WLTP range of under 220. That involved sticking below 65mph and patiently following high vehicles in perfect conditions. On the other hand, I've seen below 150 miles when driving fast in the cold, wind and rain.

Most of the time, range is unimportant because most journeys are short. However, on long journeys you soon learn to optimise your speed to achieve a balance between making progress and minimising charging stops. 

I did a 336 mile journey both ways over the bank holiday. In an ICE. I stopped once each way. I didn’t need to refuel so each time the stop was thirty minutes to get the kids fed and toileted then back in the car. In each stop I noted that all chargers were being used. I also noted some of them were blocked by cars but were actually out of action. The charging points caused the car parks to back up unnecessarily as people jostled for the chargers.

I keep coming back to the basic infrastructure problem. The roads over the bank holiday were busy without being maybe as busy as had been predicted. But even now with a very low volume of electric vehicles on the road it’s problematic. Try tripling that (still a very low number as a %) and then it’s complete chaos and unworkable. 

The infrastructure is lagging behind the needs of the industry and potential consumers. 

I would buy an EV if I had confidence that this sort of journey I have to do several times a year with young kids could be manageable without too much disruption. Adding a few minutes on the wait is fine. Doubling stopping time or needing multiple stops simply isn’t. Nor is not having the stereo on or the AC on. 

EVs are marvellous. It’s time the actual infrastructure to support them was close to adequate and it’s not. 

Once again this comes back to whether you absolutely have to carry on doing things in exactly the same way in an EV that you do in your ICEV. Hint: you don't!

There are myriad ways to manage long journeys in an EV. My favourites include avoiding peak times, planning shorter legs with longer stops served by reliable charging. I never need to charge on the motorway but, if I did, I'd plan around the known reliable hubs with loads of chargers rather than expecting every service station to be a safe bet.

If time is absolutely paramount on these occasional long journeys then you can always spend a small portion of your savings on hiring a hybrid. It's pretty irrational to base your entire motoring paradigm on the exceptional cases of 'several times a year'.

The problem is you are still talking about adapting as is now. Not adapting as might be needed when half the populous is in full EVs. And there is only so much adaptation with young kids that you can feasibly do. 

I’ve no idea why this issue gets so much defence from EV owners. Surely you want the infrastructure to be better to be able to support the growth in these vehicles? My issue is not with the cars but with the failure as a nation to properly support them. We can and should be doing much more. Why anyone wouldn’t agree with that is beyond me.

On the M5 at the services I chatted to a guy in his Tesla and he said it’s still a complete ballache for long motorway drives at times. His wife refuses to drive it on long journeys as she is too anxious about it. I get the way we will adapt. But we need to solve these problems of a lack of chargers and unreliable charging points. Many more chargers with much higher reliability and things will be green to go for the EV future. 

It's not really defensive, just explanatory. The truth is that most of us avoid rapid charging if at all possible - it costs ~ 10x the price of home charging and negates most of the fuel savings. Sure, we use it when absolutely necessary, but it's more of a last resort than part of our everyday driving.

My adaptations are typically not dependent on public charging at all. I tend to stay at places where I can charge to avoid the need to rely on the 'infrastructure'.

Herzlos

[Deleted User] said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Use one of these, if you get a big enough EV you can probably get it in the boot or on a trailer behind the car.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/impax-im2800ifg-3000w-inverter-frame-generator-240v/859hp

You can charge up wherever you want, full and complete freedom with an EV, no queuing at charge points, just stop anytime and charge.

I'm not sure if EV manufacturers have missed a trick by not including one of these in the car or at least allowing you to charge up with it when driving to keep things topped up.

I mentioned the idea of either a battery trailer or a generator trailer on here a while ago, as it seemed like a great way to extend to the range for occasional use. But the reality is that it's never taken off because it's just not needed now; whilst a 300 mile round trip is beyond most current generation EV's, a 150 mile / recharge / 150 mile isn't really a concern.

The idea that you could visit someone regularly and not want to drop a cable out of a window to recharge it is a bit odd, but there'd still be nothing stopping them using a fast charger near the destination.
A 300 mile round trip would cost about £46 assuming you paid £1.70/l and got 50mpg. The same journey might cost as little as £6 with electric (assuming 2p/mile). For the £40 saving I'd be happy to wait half an hour somewhere to recharge.

MouldyOldDough

DB1904 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Surprisingly yes he is - he regularly drives some 300 miles to see relatives
But in any case - there must be millions like him that physically are unable to charge at home 

iwb100

Deleted_User said:

This thread is ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow with demand. Petrol stations will be EV stations. Otherwise petrol stations will go out of business. 

Tesla are even starting to open up their superchargers as Elon Musk knows that once all manufacturers are up and running he will be supplying a good majority of the batteries as he will have everything in place to do so and will be the major player in EV stations. 

It does not make any business sense to not keep up with the infrastructure. 

This is all rather silly, it’s like arguing with kids!

The problem is that already we see demand is outstripping the growth of charging points. It’s not growing with demand.