EV range

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

DB1904 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Surprisingly yes he is - he regularly drives some 300 miles to see relatives
But in any case - there must be millions like him that physically are unable to charge at home 

Despite having essentially refuted this at least 5 times, let's try again.

There's about 6.6 million houses (about 25%) without off-street parking.

However there are also about 6.6 million houses that don't have a car. Now there's not a 1:1 relation to those, as plenty of people without off street parking have cars, and plenty of people with off street parking that don't have cars.
If we assume car ownership and off street parking are based loosely on income, we can assume that the majority of those who don't have a car also don't have parking, no?
But even is we assume generously that half of the houses without parking do have cars, we're at about 3.3 million, so your point is technically correct, but still completely irrelevant.

Of those people, most will presumably do an average mileage of about 150/week, which is about the range of an average EV available new now.
The majority of those people with a car will take it somewhere other than someone elses' house (which might have charging), that have or are near public car parks, and so there's a high likelihood that their destination will have charging facilities.

The very few people who can't charge their car at home and can't charge it at any of their destinations will need to go and visit a dedicated charging facility when needed, but given they don't seem to take the car anywhere it's safe to assume they don't need to do that very often. Heck, for low enough mileage they can probably trickle charge the thing.

Of course, right now there isn't enough infastructure for everyone to charge everywhere yet, but 10 years ago there was essentially none and we're still at least 20 years away from everyone driving an EV, so I'm pretty confident the infrastructure will be fine. Capitalism pretty much guarantees it.

Herzlos

iwb100 said:

Deleted_User said:

This thread is ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow with demand. Petrol stations will be EV stations. Otherwise petrol stations will go out of business. 

Tesla are even starting to open up their superchargers as Elon Musk knows that once all manufacturers are up and running he will be supplying a good majority of the batteries as he will have everything in place to do so and will be the major player in EV stations. 

It does not make any business sense to not keep up with the infrastructure. 

This is all rather silly, it’s like arguing with kids!

The problem is that already we see demand is outstripping the growth of charging points. It’s not growing with demand. 

Demand has been far higher than anticipated. Somehow, despite people on internet forums insisting that electric cars are useless, people are buying them as fast as they can be produced.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

Also, your statement was "people without access to home charging.  They are a large minority"

Can you provide the evidence to back that up please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?
How many homes have off-street parking within easy access to electricity in the dwelling?

iwb100

Herzlos said:

iwb100 said:

Deleted_User said:

This thread is ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow with demand. Petrol stations will be EV stations. Otherwise petrol stations will go out of business. 

Tesla are even starting to open up their superchargers as Elon Musk knows that once all manufacturers are up and running he will be supplying a good majority of the batteries as he will have everything in place to do so and will be the major player in EV stations. 

It does not make any business sense to not keep up with the infrastructure. 

This is all rather silly, it’s like arguing with kids!

The problem is that already we see demand is outstripping the growth of charging points. It’s not growing with demand. 

Demand has been far higher than anticipated. Somehow, despite people on internet forums insisting that electric cars are useless, people are buying them as fast as they can be produced.

Yes this is true. Demand is higher than expected. And I love EVs. I just want the government to pull their fingers out and actually have a properly funded plan in place ala Germany to support their adoption.

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

However off-street parking means there's already a space for the car, so no need to dig up gardens. Given a dedicated space for the car, it's relatively trivial to run power out to it to charge a car.

Sure, there will be some edge cases where the off-street parking is a small flat space at the bottom of a 500ft garden, but for most people with an off street parking space, there will be some way to charge a car at some point before the resident will be forced to move to an EV.

You're trying desperately to find problems that don't really exist.

Herzlos

iwb100 said:

Herzlos said:

iwb100 said:

Deleted_User said:

This thread is ridiculous. The infrastructure will grow with demand. Petrol stations will be EV stations. Otherwise petrol stations will go out of business. 

Tesla are even starting to open up their superchargers as Elon Musk knows that once all manufacturers are up and running he will be supplying a good majority of the batteries as he will have everything in place to do so and will be the major player in EV stations. 

It does not make any business sense to not keep up with the infrastructure. 

This is all rather silly, it’s like arguing with kids!

The problem is that already we see demand is outstripping the growth of charging points. It’s not growing with demand. 

Demand has been far higher than anticipated. Somehow, despite people on internet forums insisting that electric cars are useless, people are buying them as fast as they can be produced.

Yes this is true. Demand is higher than expected. And I love EVs. I just want the government to pull their fingers out and actually have a properly funded plan in place ala Germany to support their adoption.

Absolutely, can you image how we'll we'd do with a competent Government? At least Scotland seems to be avoiding the bulk of the stupidity but it's costing us a fortune.

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

However off-street parking means there's already a space for the car, so no need to dig up gardens. Given a dedicated space for the car, it's relatively trivial to run power out to it to charge a car.

Sure, there will be some edge cases where the off-street parking is a small flat space at the bottom of a 500ft garden, but for most people with an off street parking space, there will be some way to charge a car at some point before the resident will be forced to move to an EV.

You're trying desperately to find problems that don't really exist.

My dad lives in an upmarket estate with no roads - only footpaths between properties - he has to park his car in a car park (some 200 yards from his house) - he lives roughly in the middle of the complex, so some people have to walk 400 yards to their cars - they all have garages (so I suppose that a supply "could" be arranged - but this would be hurrendously complex and expensive to arrange

There are properties in my area with no parking at all - and since there are no buses around here - there are no options

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

Yes, it's a massive issue for people without access to home charging. They are a large minority with a significant disadvantage. There are localised schemes to help people in terraced houses to charge, but it needs serious investment.

Can you back that up with evidence-based data please?
How many homes are there in the country?
How many home EV charge points have been installed?

The proportion of properties with mains electricity is well over 99%. The proportion of properties with off street parking is widely reported as around 60%. Those are the two requirements for home charging - any plug socket will suffice. Anyone fulfilling those criteria would be able to have an EVSE fitted if needed, but you can pick up a 'granny charger' for £100 if your EV doesn't come with one.

It does not necessarily follow that properties with off-street parking all have the ability to connect to home charging. 
Off-street parking includes flats with a carpark, properties with garages en-block, etc. 
Off-street parking is not simply a front driveway where you can run a supply from the house.
Off-street parking does not include every property with a front garden which could be dug up to create off-street parking.

However off-street parking means there's already a space for the car, so no need to dig up gardens. Given a dedicated space for the car, it's relatively trivial to run power out to it to charge a car.

Sure, there will be some edge cases where the off-street parking is a small flat space at the bottom of a 500ft garden, but for most people with an off street parking space, there will be some way to charge a car at some point before the resident will be forced to move to an EV.

You're trying desperately to find problems that don't really exist.

My dad lives in an upmarket estate with no roads - only footpaths between properties - he has to park his car in a car park (some 200 yards from his house) - he lives roughly in the middle of the complex, so some people have to walk 400 yards to their cars - they all have garages (so I suppose that a supply "could" be arranged - but this would be hurrendously complex and expensive to arrange

Does the car park having lighting? If so, it's already got power cables and routing, so feeding more in should be relatively straightforward.

That also sounds like a relatively modern estate, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's already some provision there for additional power. I suspect if such an estate was built now, all of the parking spaces would at least be set up to have an electrical point (for a fee).

There are properties in my area with no parking at all - and since there are no buses around here - there are no options

So where do people park?

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

DB1904 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Surprisingly yes he is - he regularly drives some 300 miles to see relatives
But in any case - there must be millions like him that physically are unable to charge at home 

Despite having essentially refuted this at least 5 times, let's try again.

There's about 6.6 million houses (about 25%) without off-street parking.

However there are also about 6.6 million houses that don't have a car. Now there's not a 1:1 relation to those, as plenty of people without off street parking have cars, and plenty of people with off street parking that don't have cars.
If we assume car ownership and off street parking are based loosely on income, we can assume that the majority of those who don't have a car also don't have parking, no?
But even is we assume generously that half of the houses without parking do have cars, we're at about 3.3 million, so your point is technically correct, but still completely irrelevant.

Of those people, most will presumably do an average mileage of about 150/week, which is about the range of an average EV available new now.
The majority of those people with a car will take it somewhere other than someone elses' house (which might have charging), that have or are near public car parks, and so there's a high likelihood that their destination will have charging facilities.

The very few people who can't charge their car at home and can't charge it at any of their destinations will need to go and visit a dedicated charging facility when needed, but given they don't seem to take the car anywhere it's safe to assume they don't need to do that very often. Heck, for low enough mileage they can probably trickle charge the thing.

Of course, right now there isn't enough infastructure for everyone to charge everywhere yet, but 10 years ago there was essentially none and we're still at least 20 years away from everyone driving an EV, so I'm pretty confident the infrastructure will be fine. Capitalism pretty much guarantees it.

Assumptions and Guesses !

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

DB1904 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

Is he still driving long distances at 90?

Surprisingly yes he is - he regularly drives some 300 miles to see relatives
But in any case - there must be millions like him that physically are unable to charge at home 

Despite having essentially refuted this at least 5 times, let's try again.

There's about 6.6 million houses (about 25%) without off-street parking.

However there are also about 6.6 million houses that don't have a car. Now there's not a 1:1 relation to those, as plenty of people without off street parking have cars, and plenty of people with off street parking that don't have cars.
If we assume car ownership and off street parking are based loosely on income, we can assume that the majority of those who don't have a car also don't have parking, no?
But even is we assume generously that half of the houses without parking do have cars, we're at about 3.3 million, so your point is technically correct, but still completely irrelevant.

Of those people, most will presumably do an average mileage of about 150/week, which is about the range of an average EV available new now.
The majority of those people with a car will take it somewhere other than someone elses' house (which might have charging), that have or are near public car parks, and so there's a high likelihood that their destination will have charging facilities.

The very few people who can't charge their car at home and can't charge it at any of their destinations will need to go and visit a dedicated charging facility when needed, but given they don't seem to take the car anywhere it's safe to assume they don't need to do that very often. Heck, for low enough mileage they can probably trickle charge the thing.

Of course, right now there isn't enough infastructure for everyone to charge everywhere yet, but 10 years ago there was essentially none and we're still at least 20 years away from everyone driving an EV, so I'm pretty confident the infrastructure will be fine. Capitalism pretty much guarantees it.

Assumptions and Guesses !

Yup, that's why I use words like "assume". Do you want to try and refute any of it? Can you see any bad assumptions there or able to provide anything that proves me wrong?