EV range

[Deleted User]

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

It's actually a totally valid question, and one which people should fully understand before choosing an EV. The real answer is that an EV doesn't 'have a range' at all. The quoted 'range' is usually the WLTP result, but there's also the 'GOM' (Guess'o'meter) range displayed in the vehicle itself which is can be highly misleading. 

Actual range varies massively depending on factors including speed, journey type, driving style, temperature and weather conditions.

A typical EV is actually most efficient at somewhere between 15 and 30 mph and, in ideal conditions with the HVAC off, it's possible to vastly exceed the WLTP range.

I've managed to push my standard range MG5 to over 250 miles despite having a WLTP range of under 220. That involved sticking below 65mph and patiently following high vehicles in perfect conditions. On the other hand, I've seen below 150 miles when driving fast in the cold, wind and rain.

Most of the time, range is unimportant because most journeys are short. However, on long journeys you soon learn to optimise your speed to achieve a balance between making progress and minimising charging stops. 

I did a 336 mile journey both ways over the bank holiday. In an ICE. I stopped once each way. I didn’t need to refuel so each time the stop was thirty minutes to get the kids fed and toileted then back in the car. In each stop I noted that all chargers were being used. I also noted some of them were blocked by cars but were actually out of action. The charging points caused the car parks to back up unnecessarily as people jostled for the chargers.

I keep coming back to the basic infrastructure problem. The roads over the bank holiday were busy without being maybe as busy as had been predicted. But even now with a very low volume of electric vehicles on the road it’s problematic. Try tripling that (still a very low number as a %) and then it’s complete chaos and unworkable. 

The infrastructure is lagging behind the needs of the industry and potential consumers. 

I would buy an EV if I had confidence that this sort of journey I have to do several times a year with young kids could be manageable without too much disruption. Adding a few minutes on the wait is fine. Doubling stopping time or needing multiple stops simply isn’t. Nor is not having the stereo on or the AC on. 

EVs are marvellous. It’s time the actual infrastructure to support them was close to adequate and it’s not. 

And I did a 250 mile trip and charged once at an instavolt rapid charger and had no wait or trouble at all. It’s amazing how one’s view can be subconsciously swayed by one’s bias. 

The glass is half empty will find negatives. 

Petriix

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

It's actually a totally valid question, and one which people should fully understand before choosing an EV. The real answer is that an EV doesn't 'have a range' at all. The quoted 'range' is usually the WLTP result, but there's also the 'GOM' (Guess'o'meter) range displayed in the vehicle itself which is can be highly misleading. 

Actual range varies massively depending on factors including speed, journey type, driving style, temperature and weather conditions.

A typical EV is actually most efficient at somewhere between 15 and 30 mph and, in ideal conditions with the HVAC off, it's possible to vastly exceed the WLTP range.

I've managed to push my standard range MG5 to over 250 miles despite having a WLTP range of under 220. That involved sticking below 65mph and patiently following high vehicles in perfect conditions. On the other hand, I've seen below 150 miles when driving fast in the cold, wind and rain.

Most of the time, range is unimportant because most journeys are short. However, on long journeys you soon learn to optimise your speed to achieve a balance between making progress and minimising charging stops. 

I did a 336 mile journey both ways over the bank holiday. In an ICE. I stopped once each way. I didn’t need to refuel so each time the stop was thirty minutes to get the kids fed and toileted then back in the car. In each stop I noted that all chargers were being used. I also noted some of them were blocked by cars but were actually out of action. The charging points caused the car parks to back up unnecessarily as people jostled for the chargers.

I keep coming back to the basic infrastructure problem. The roads over the bank holiday were busy without being maybe as busy as had been predicted. But even now with a very low volume of electric vehicles on the road it’s problematic. Try tripling that (still a very low number as a %) and then it’s complete chaos and unworkable. 

The infrastructure is lagging behind the needs of the industry and potential consumers. 

I would buy an EV if I had confidence that this sort of journey I have to do several times a year with young kids could be manageable without too much disruption. Adding a few minutes on the wait is fine. Doubling stopping time or needing multiple stops simply isn’t. Nor is not having the stereo on or the AC on. 

EVs are marvellous. It’s time the actual infrastructure to support them was close to adequate and it’s not. 

Once again this comes back to whether you absolutely have to carry on doing things in exactly the same way in an EV that you do in your ICEV. Hint: you don't!

There are myriad ways to manage long journeys in an EV. My favourites include avoiding peak times, planning shorter legs with longer stops served by reliable charging. I never need to charge on the motorway but, if I did, I'd plan around the known reliable hubs with loads of chargers rather than expecting every service station to be a safe bet.

If time is absolutely paramount on these occasional long journeys then you can always spend a small portion of your savings on hiring a hybrid. It's pretty irrational to base your entire motoring paradigm on the exceptional cases of 'several times a year'.

Petriix

MouldyOldDough said:

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

It's actually a totally valid question, and one which people should fully understand before choosing an EV. The real answer is that an EV doesn't 'have a range' at all. The quoted 'range' is usually the WLTP result, but there's also the 'GOM' (Guess'o'meter) range displayed in the vehicle itself which is can be highly misleading. 

Actual range varies massively depending on factors including speed, journey type, driving style, temperature and weather conditions.

A typical EV is actually most efficient at somewhere between 15 and 30 mph and, in ideal conditions with the HVAC off, it's possible to vastly exceed the WLTP range.

I've managed to push my standard range MG5 to over 250 miles despite having a WLTP range of under 220. That involved sticking below 65mph and patiently following high vehicles in perfect conditions. On the other hand, I've seen below 150 miles when driving fast in the cold, wind and rain.

Most of the time, range is unimportant because most journeys are short. However, on long journeys you soon learn to optimise your speed to achieve a balance between making progress and minimising charging stops. 

I did a 336 mile journey both ways over the bank holiday. In an ICE. I stopped once each way. I didn’t need to refuel so each time the stop was thirty minutes to get the kids fed and toileted then back in the car. In each stop I noted that all chargers were being used. I also noted some of them were blocked by cars but were actually out of action. The charging points caused the car parks to back up unnecessarily as people jostled for the chargers.

I keep coming back to the basic infrastructure problem. The roads over the bank holiday were busy without being maybe as busy as had been predicted. But even now with a very low volume of electric vehicles on the road it’s problematic. Try tripling that (still a very low number as a %) and then it’s complete chaos and unworkable. 

The infrastructure is lagging behind the needs of the industry and potential consumers. 

I would buy an EV if I had confidence that this sort of journey I have to do several times a year with young kids could be manageable without too much disruption. Adding a few minutes on the wait is fine. Doubling stopping time or needing multiple stops simply isn’t. Nor is not having the stereo on or the AC on. 

EVs are marvellous. It’s time the actual infrastructure to support them was close to adequate and it’s not. 

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

You've obviously never sat in an EV which isn't moving. I switched mine on while I was camping last week to charge a couple of phones. The state of charge dropped by 1% in around 5 hours. It's hard to know exactly how much energy was used but definitely < 2kWh, more likely ~ 1kWh. I suspect it would take over a week to run out completely. 

MacPingu1986

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

DrEskimo

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

It's actually a totally valid question, and one which people should fully understand before choosing an EV. The real answer is that an EV doesn't 'have a range' at all. The quoted 'range' is usually the WLTP result, but there's also the 'GOM' (Guess'o'meter) range displayed in the vehicle itself which is can be highly misleading. 

Actual range varies massively depending on factors including speed, journey type, driving style, temperature and weather conditions.

A typical EV is actually most efficient at somewhere between 15 and 30 mph and, in ideal conditions with the HVAC off, it's possible to vastly exceed the WLTP range.

I've managed to push my standard range MG5 to over 250 miles despite having a WLTP range of under 220. That involved sticking below 65mph and patiently following high vehicles in perfect conditions. On the other hand, I've seen below 150 miles when driving fast in the cold, wind and rain.

Most of the time, range is unimportant because most journeys are short. However, on long journeys you soon learn to optimise your speed to achieve a balance between making progress and minimising charging stops. 

EVs are marvellous. It’s time the actual infrastructure to support them was close to adequate and it’s not. 

This is well evidenced when I borrow my Father-In-Laws Tesla Model S for longer journeys. Whilst in my Zoe I spend a bit of time planning and getting to know the different chargers around so I have plenty of options, in the Tesla I don't even look. I just follow the sat nav, knowing that there will be plenty of stalls all working and will only require 10-15mins before I have enough to keep going.

MouldyOldDough

MacPingu1986 said:

MouldyOldDough said:

How about traffic jams?
I am aware that an IC car needs fuel but I can imagine the stress of sitting in stationary traffic watching your range drop from using accessories /aircon
Not knowing whether you will be able to recharge at the next stop
For IC cars it's a simple quick refill but not EV's

This has all been covered in depth on the other thread.

Absolute range and refuelling speed is only one factor in car choice. The average UK driver only carries out 2 journeys over 100 miles per year (and on average only one journey over 200 miles every 5 years!). The vast, vast majority of driving consists of short range, simple, routine, repeatable trips where concerns about range and refuelling speed isn't a problem and the various other benefits of EVs more than offset the additional planning required for the very occasional longer journey.

If you're one of the small % of drivers who regularly drives long distances then you'll balance range as more of a priority against other factors. For everyone else, it's just one rather small, often irrelevant, factor.

I drive a 150mile journey every 2 months stay over night and return the next day
The relatives that I stay with have no charging facilities and I would not want ask them if I can use a 13 amp socket
What would you do?
Plus there is my Dad who lives in a house with no drive or ability to run a cable to his car
How would he charge at home? 

iwb100

Petriix said:

iwb100 said:

Petriix said:

It's actually a totally valid question, and one which people should fully understand before choosing an EV. The real answer is that an EV doesn't 'have a range' at all. The quoted 'range' is usually the WLTP result, but there's also the 'GOM' (Guess'o'meter) range displayed in the vehicle itself which is can be highly misleading. 

Actual range varies massively depending on factors including speed, journey type, driving style, temperature and weather conditions.

A typical EV is actually most efficient at somewhere between 15 and 30 mph and, in ideal conditions with the HVAC off, it's possible to vastly exceed the WLTP range.

I've managed to push my standard range MG5 to over 250 miles despite having a WLTP range of under 220. That involved sticking below 65mph and patiently following high vehicles in perfect conditions. On the other hand, I've seen below 150 miles when driving fast in the cold, wind and rain.

Most of the time, range is unimportant because most journeys are short. However, on long journeys you soon learn to optimise your speed to achieve a balance between making progress and minimising charging stops. 

I did a 336 mile journey both ways over the bank holiday. In an ICE. I stopped once each way. I didn’t need to refuel so each time the stop was thirty minutes to get the kids fed and toileted then back in the car. In each stop I noted that all chargers were being used. I also noted some of them were blocked by cars but were actually out of action. The charging points caused the car parks to back up unnecessarily as people jostled for the chargers.

I keep coming back to the basic infrastructure problem. The roads over the bank holiday were busy without being maybe as busy as had been predicted. But even now with a very low volume of electric vehicles on the road it’s problematic. Try tripling that (still a very low number as a %) and then it’s complete chaos and unworkable. 

The infrastructure is lagging behind the needs of the industry and potential consumers. 

I would buy an EV if I had confidence that this sort of journey I have to do several times a year with young kids could be manageable without too much disruption. Adding a few minutes on the wait is fine. Doubling stopping time or needing multiple stops simply isn’t. Nor is not having the stereo on or the AC on. 

EVs are marvellous. It’s time the actual infrastructure to support them was close to adequate and it’s not. 

Once again this comes back to whether you absolutely have to carry on doing things in exactly the same way in an EV that you do in your ICEV. Hint: you don't!

There are myriad ways to manage long journeys in an EV. My favourites include avoiding peak times, planning shorter legs with longer stops served by reliable charging. I never need to charge on the motorway but, if I did, I'd plan around the known reliable hubs with loads of chargers rather than expecting every service station to be a safe bet.

If time is absolutely paramount on these occasional long journeys then you can always spend a small portion of your savings on hiring a hybrid. It's pretty irrational to base your entire motoring paradigm on the exceptional cases of 'several times a year'.

The problem is you are still talking about adapting as is now. Not adapting as might be needed when half the populous is in full EVs. And there is only so much adaptation with young kids that you can feasibly do. 

I’ve no idea why this issue gets so much defence from EV owners. Surely you want the infrastructure to be better to be able to support the growth in these vehicles? My issue is not with the cars but with the failure as a nation to properly support them. We can and should be doing much more. Why anyone wouldn’t agree with that is beyond me.

On the M5 at the services I chatted to a guy in his Tesla and he said it’s still a complete ballache for long motorway drives at times. His wife refuses to drive it on long journeys as she is too anxious about it. I get the way we will adapt. But we need to solve these problems of a lack of chargers and unreliable charging points. Many more chargers with much higher reliability and things will be green to go for the EV future. 

MacPingu1986

Driving a 150 mile journey 12 times a year isn't reflective of most car owners and car usage. As mentioned above you have to consider the slight changes a typical car owner makes to the couple of long drives per year against the various other benefits you get to take advantage of much more regularly.

For your scenario if that was me then I'd either:

• charge from their normal plug socket (why would you not want to ask? - You can give them cash or bank transfer for cost if you want to keep your relatives whole of any costs); or
• Charge either near to the destination on the way there or back - 150 miles is a pretty decent amount of time on the road so breaking up the journey isn't a bad idea,or if you're out with your relatives then at nearby supermarket, public charging etc...

For your father with no home charging (he likely doesn't have a petrol pump at home for his ICE either...) he could check where public chargers are nearby and use whichever public charger is most convenient, perhaps whilst running nearby errands or grocery shopping etc...

iwb100

MacPingu1986 said:

Driving a 150 mile journey 12 times a year isn't reflective of most car owners and car usage. As mentioned above you have to consider the slight changes a typical car owner makes to the couple of long drives per year against the various other benefits you get to take advantage of much more regularly.

For your scenario if that was me then I'd either:

• charge from their normal plug socket (why would you not want to ask? - You can give them cash or bank transfer for cost if you want to keep your relatives whole of any costs); or
• Charge either near to the destination on the way there or back - 150 miles is a pretty decent amount of time on the road so breaking up the journey isn't a bad idea,or if you're out with your relatives then at nearby supermarket, public charging etc...

For your father with no home charging (he likely doesn't have a petrol pump at home for his ICE either...) he could check where public chargers are nearby and use whichever public charger is most convenient, perhaps whilst running nearby errands or grocery shopping etc...

Again this reflects the position EV owners have now. They can make relatively small changes to their lives because there aren’t that many other owners. 

The nearest charging point to me is Lidl. Who have two charge points for their customers. Other than that I have to drive 3 miles into town…a journey I never make to get to a charging station. 

Now imagine that is the situation with few EVs. Imagine that with half the neighbourhood having them…

The infrastructure needs to be way better. I’ve no idea why EV owners are so determined to argue otherwise…you’d think they would want the best infrastructure in place…but seems like they’d rather suggest it’s not needed and queuing to charge is just something to deal with…

MacPingu1986

IWB - No ones arguing against EV infrastructure, or that there doesn't need to be more infrastructure - I'm all for more infrastructure!

There's plenty of roll-outs of charge points taking place all over the country - workplaces, supermarkets, public car parks, homecharging etc... The growth of the infrastructure is happening in tandem with the growth of EVs - all scaling up as the numbers grow. 

I'm just commenting on Mouldy's *very* specific and niche scenarios (which arn't reflective of 99.9% of car use) as "gotcha's" to argue against EVs.