EV range

Petriix

With the latest hikes in charging prices (up to 10p per kWh from 5p for me from January 2023), my cost per mile is going to be a staggering 2p. That's £200 total for the 10,000 miles I cover. Add on the VED and from 2025 I might be paying close to £500 per year in total. At today's rates for diesel and VED on an ICE that would be around £1800 so my annual savings will be slashed to just £1300.

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Ectophile

MouldyOldDough said:

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

But don't neglect the down-sides of ICE vehicles.  The clutch is broken* on my Fiat.  That's going to cost £1000 to fix.  EVs don't have a clutch.

Unfortunately, the EV I want isn't available in this country yet.

*actually broken, not just new friction plates needed.

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

MouldyOldDough

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

CKhalvashi

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

As the prices of electricity stabilise, the costs will come down.

For the third of drivers who don't have access to off-street parking, at least one company is working on roadside charging points up to single phase limits in most cases (the units themselves are good for a lot more than this) that are relatively inexpensive. I have a financial interest in their European rollout (they are viewing the EU and UK as a single market, with their home market being viewed differently), starting with Poland, and remain in close contact with their management team.

They're aiming for the 20p-ish price range (plus VAT) long term and need to recoup their costs, both initial and ongoing, from that.

Again no names as I don't want to be seen to advertise.

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

Do the third of UK drivers without off-street parking need an EV? No-one is being forced to upgrade.

I've explained how it'll work many many times, to you, in this thread. Even if you don't have off-street parking, you presumably need to take the car *somewhere* or you wouldn't have a car, and with a tiny bit of planning you can recharge at the *somewhere*.

Drive to work? Charge there.
Drive to supermarket? Charge there.
Drive to a shopping centre? Charge there.

Drive to a cinema? Charge there.

If you don't visit anywhere, you'll need to charge at a public charging station somewhere, and pay for it. Currently you'll be paying about the same as you would for petrol. The better range and efficiency become, and the better infrastructure gets, the less often you'll need to charge.

For pretty much everyone else, you can charge cheaper. There are people on here literally telling you that they are seeing running costs of 2p/mile and you're ignoring them over this narrow edge case.


You can be pretty certainly that ICE fuel is ever going to get cheaper either, so it's safe to assume that EV's are always going to be in the same ball park as ICE for the worst case.

We've been open about the downsides of EV's, and they aren't as bad as you're intent on making things out to be. Have you considered any of the upsides?

MouldyOldDough

CKhalvashi said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

As the prices of electricity stabilise, the costs will come down.

For the third of drivers who don't have access to off-street parking, at least one company is working on roadside charging points up to single phase limits in most cases (the units themselves are good for a lot more than this) that are relatively inexpensive. I have a financial interest in their European rollout (they are viewing the EU and UK as a single market, with their home market being viewed differently), starting with Poland, and remain in close contact with their management team.

They're aiming for the 20p-ish price range (plus VAT) long term and need to recoup their costs, both initial and ongoing, from that.

Again no names as I don't want to be seen to advertise.

And another thing

Where is all of this extra electricity going to come from ?

We are all, well aware that there is a shortage anyway and with millions of EVs on the roads - I dont believe that wind and solar will make up the difference

20p per what ? kWh ? Sorry - but I don't believe that

Martyn1981

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

1KW would barely get a BEV (or ICE) moving, that's just 1.34hp, but assuming it gets moving, then the distance will depend on how long that power is applied. Could be inches, could be hundreds of miles.

Martyn1981

MouldyOldDough said:

CKhalvashi said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

As the prices of electricity stabilise, the costs will come down.

For the third of drivers who don't have access to off-street parking, at least one company is working on roadside charging points up to single phase limits in most cases (the units themselves are good for a lot more than this) that are relatively inexpensive. I have a financial interest in their European rollout (they are viewing the EU and UK as a single market, with their home market being viewed differently), starting with Poland, and remain in close contact with their management team.

They're aiming for the 20p-ish price range (plus VAT) long term and need to recoup their costs, both initial and ongoing, from that.

Again no names as I don't want to be seen to advertise.

And another thing

Where is all of this extra electricity going to come from ?

We are all, well aware that there is a shortage anyway and with millions of EVs on the roads - I dont believe that wind and solar will make up the difference

20p per what ? kWh ? Sorry - but I don't believe that

Ah, the where is all the leccy coming from 'argument'.

Firstly BEV's are about 3 or 4 times more efficient than ICEV's so the total energy needed is far less. An all electric future (transport, industry and space heating), should result in a roughly 60% reduction in primary energy demand, since the majority of energy (from coal, oil, gas etc) is wasted, mostly as heat. For instance a petrol car only extracts about 20% of the energy put into it.

Next, based on a whole BEV car fleet in the UK, that would add around 60TWh* of demand (gross), around +17%. But the net increase is probably closer to 10% after all of the energy savings at the refinery (around 4-6kWh per gallon).

So + 10% for cars, let's say 15% for all vehicles as the car fleet consumes roughly 2/3rds of road fuel. That's spread over ~25yrs (10yrs to reach 100% of sales, then another 15yrs to convert most of the UK fleet.)

Can we add 15% supply over the next 25yrs (0.6%pa), let's have a thunk. Well, for the last decade we've added roughly 3.5%pa just from RE, taking its percentage from about 5% in the late 2010's, to about 45% now. And the deployment of RE is accelerating, just the offshore wind approved in this years CfD auction was 7GW, so at a 50% cf (capacity factor), that's roughly +10%, and as the CfD's were every two years (annual from next year), then that's equal to +5%pa, just from that auction, and just for offshore wind.

So looks good to me, what did your calculations suggest? Please post them all for comparison and reasonable debate.

National Grid ESO have also suggested about a +10% potential impact on peak demand, from an all BEV fleet, but also pointed out that peak demand has fallen about 10% over the last decade.

As for leccy prices, they are being dictated, currently by the price of FF gas. However, going back to my mention of the latest offshore wind contracts, they were issued at £48/MWh, so roughly 5p/kWh, and roughly equal to the historic average wholesale price of leccy, unlike the current spike at closer to 4x that. So long term prices, thanks to RE, are looking excellent, and (though this may be hard to believe) pretty much locked in forever, as the fuel, in the case of wind and PV generation, is delivered free to the RE farm, so is not subject to inflation.

*Very simple maths, which I'm sure you've already done:

Approx 30m cars on UK roads. Average annual mileage is about 7,400 miles (and dropping each year), but let's call it 8,000. BEV's, especially smaller ones, and city driving, can achieve 4 miles/kWh, so that's roughly 2,000kWh (2MWh) per car pa.

30m x 2MWh = 60,000,000MWh, or 60TWh.
UK leccy generation is around 350TWh, but has been falling.
60TWh/350TWh *100% = 17.1%

[Note, other figures, than 350TWh may be found. There's generation, but consumption is lower (after losses), then there's UK generation, and net UK consumption (imports and exports). But 350TWh (and falling) is a reasonable figure to use here.]

Hope this all helps answer and address your concerns, and it's fun to run the numbers again, as it's something I and/or others have posted on various EV threads on MSE for 5yrs+, as the doubters really think the problem is big, not small.