EV range

CKhalvashi

MouldyOldDough said:

CKhalvashi said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

As the prices of electricity stabilise, the costs will come down.

For the third of drivers who don't have access to off-street parking, at least one company is working on roadside charging points up to single phase limits in most cases (the units themselves are good for a lot more than this) that are relatively inexpensive. I have a financial interest in their European rollout (they are viewing the EU and UK as a single market, with their home market being viewed differently), starting with Poland, and remain in close contact with their management team.

They're aiming for the 20p-ish price range (plus VAT) long term and need to recoup their costs, both initial and ongoing, from that.

Again no names as I don't want to be seen to advertise.

And another thing

Where is all of this extra electricity going to come from ?

We are all, well aware that there is a shortage anyway and with millions of EVs on the roads - I dont believe that wind and solar will make up the difference

20p per what ? kWh ? Sorry - but I don't believe that

20p/kWh. At the moment 1.2zl+VAT (divide by about 5.5 to convert into £) in Poland is yielding on average a 3.6% return with high (compared to normal circumstances) input costs.

That isn't a great return in itself, but once again, it's about prices coming down for electricity. Poland has large amounts of solar and wind power already and I can see a lot more coming to the UK. That needs to happen to avoid this situation happening again.

Edit: See Martyn's post for a much more detailed explanation. He explains it better than I could on current energy levels

Herzlos

MouldyOldDough said:

CKhalvashi said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

As the prices of electricity stabilise, the costs will come down.

For the third of drivers who don't have access to off-street parking, at least one company is working on roadside charging points up to single phase limits in most cases (the units themselves are good for a lot more than this) that are relatively inexpensive. I have a financial interest in their European rollout (they are viewing the EU and UK as a single market, with their home market being viewed differently), starting with Poland, and remain in close contact with their management team.

They're aiming for the 20p-ish price range (plus VAT) long term and need to recoup their costs, both initial and ongoing, from that.

Again no names as I don't want to be seen to advertise.

And another thing

Where is all of this extra electricity going to come from ?

We are all, well aware that there is a shortage anyway and with millions of EVs on the roads - I dont believe that wind and solar will make up the difference

Why not? Do you think we're going to run out of wind, sun or waves?

Do you know how big an increase in energy we're looking at here?

Or are you just scrolling though the tired old list of debunked reasons that EV's are bad?

I'm surprised you've not mentioned batteries yet.

Martyn1981

CKhalvashi said:

MouldyOldDough said:

CKhalvashi said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Herzlos said:

MouldyOldDough said:

ComicGeek said:

ctuMouldyOldDough said:

EVs are going to be subject to road tax according to the chancellor 
Doesn't make sense converting now does it? 

I know - the possibility of paying a very small amount of money in a few years time has really made me regret the thousands and thousands of pounds saved by having my EV....

Even with the actual charging costs continuing to ramp up to god knows how much??? 

Because they haven't actually gone up that much for most drivers, and many EV drivers still save a fortune compared to ICE?

But then you know this, because you've made the same claim dozens of times and had it rebuffed each one.

The cost of fuel went up too, so EV's in the worst case are still just about as expensive as ICE in the best case. That's before stuff like congestion/emission zones, maintenance, convenience and air quality.

1kW runs an ev for 3.5 miles on average ?

When electricity was cheap - I agree that it was cheaper to run an ev than an ice

One third of UK drivers don’t have access to off-street parking !

Electrifying.com has calculated that the average cost of UK public rapid charging was 63p per kWh -  18p per mile !

This was in early September - so is presumably more now...

With the most expensive charging network - charging double this

Not to mention the impossibility of many disabled drivers being able to charge their vehicles.

With an ice car averaging 50mpg -  at £1.80 per litre - that works out at 15p per mile.

And with the downsides of EV's - I would pick an ICE every time

Yeah, you're trotting out the worst case EV scenario and bringing it on par with best case ICE.

Do the same for an EV that gets 4 miles/kwh and can be charged at home for 10p/kwh.

Or for an EV that can still charge somewhere for free?

Rapid chargers are the equivalent of service station petrol - overpriced but provide a service. Even EV drivers without off street parking rarely use rapid chargers. Most EV drivers manage to avoid public chargers most of the time.

Does that include the third of UK drivers who don’t have access to off-street parking??

How does that work ?

You appear to be fixated with the pros of EV's and are unwilling to accept the downsides

Petrol is virtually the same cost anywhere in UK (_+/-  a few 10's pence)

Free charging will be a myth shortly

What will the price of charging be in 6 months - let alone 2 years ?

Petrol will be a similar price to today

As the prices of electricity stabilise, the costs will come down.

For the third of drivers who don't have access to off-street parking, at least one company is working on roadside charging points up to single phase limits in most cases (the units themselves are good for a lot more than this) that are relatively inexpensive. I have a financial interest in their European rollout (they are viewing the EU and UK as a single market, with their home market being viewed differently), starting with Poland, and remain in close contact with their management team.

They're aiming for the 20p-ish price range (plus VAT) long term and need to recoup their costs, both initial and ongoing, from that.

Again no names as I don't want to be seen to advertise.

And another thing

Where is all of this extra electricity going to come from ?

We are all, well aware that there is a shortage anyway and with millions of EVs on the roads - I dont believe that wind and solar will make up the difference

20p per what ? kWh ? Sorry - but I don't believe that

20p/kWh. At the moment 1.2zl+VAT (divide by about 5.5 to convert into £) in Poland is yielding on average a 3.6% return with high (compared to normal circumstances) input costs.

That isn't a great return in itself, but once again, it's about prices coming down for electricity. Poland has large amounts of solar and wind power already and I can see a lot more coming to the UK. That needs to happen to avoid this situation happening again.

Edit: See Martyn's post for a much more detailed explanation. He explains it better than I could on current energy levels

Obviously I'm going way off topic, but for anyone interested in UK RE potential, from a theoretical side, then a 'fun' calculation to do, I did many years ago coz I'm sad, is that we could generate the equivalent amount of leccy of a years UK demand, just from PV on 2% of England. The 2% was chosen as it's roughly the amount of land taken up by golf courses and golf related land. That calc worked back when panels averaged 250Wp, but now, the typical panel is around 370Wp+.

Or, even better, and a decade before Boris 'stole' the term, is an article from a University lecturer, and someone I've chatted to on another site, where he and coleagues calculated the offshore wind potential from UK waters. Their estimates varied from 10x to 100x our future all electric demand.

The UK is the Saudi Arabia of Wind Energy

Petriix

There are people on here literally telling you that they are seeing running costs of 2p/mile. 

Actually my charging costs are currently 1p per mile. It will go up to 2p per mile in January. 

Grumpy_chap

MouldyOldDough said:

Free charging will be a myth shortly

I'm not so sure.

When I was at primary school, we were promised a future of "energy too cheap to meter". 
Even if that never comes to pass, free EV charging could still be a "thing" - two examples:

• at the workplace (employee perk)
• at some venues as part of the marketing budget (in the same way that Supermarkets / out-of-town retail offer free parking but town centre shops don't)

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

MouldyOldDough said:

Free charging will be a myth shortly

I'm not so sure.

When I was at primary school, we were promised a future of "energy too cheap to meter". 
Even if that never comes to pass, free EV charging could still be a "thing" - two examples:

• at the workplace (employee perk)
• at some venues as part of the marketing budget (in the same way that Supermarkets / out-of-town retail offer free parking but town centre shops don't)

Oh no, run for the hills and hide .... you've gone and set me off again! 

Great point about supermarkets. It crossed my mind that 5p off a litre of fuel, is a common promotional 'expense'. For 50 litres that's about £2.50. For an EV charging at 7kW for 1hr (in normal price times) that's roughly 7kW x £0.15 = £1.05, perhaps twice that during these current exceptional price times?

Too cheap to meter, the hoped/hyped nuclear dream, might actually apply to BEV's, but obviously I'm postulating, not suggesting it will happen. That's because the cheapest way of reaching 100% RE (or low carbon, if we have a smidge of nuclear) is actually to have overcapacity resulting in an 'economic level' of curtailment/waste/spill*. Yes we'll have storage, intraday and longer term, but before storage becomes viable**, you need enough of it, and on a regular enough basis, to make storage viable.

This means that there will be periods of very cheap, zero cost, and even negative cost leccy. I think some folk on the variable TOU (time of use) tariffs have already 'enjoyed' negative price periods, commonly late at night, early hours. I have a forum friend in London who once charged his car overnight at -4p/kWh.

So whilst I totally appreciate your comment was tongue-in-cheek, battery storage (can anyone say 'BEV's') will be a way of helping to balance supply and demand on the grid as RE capacity and generation expand.

Good news!

*No end of studies and economic reports that conclude this. Mark Jacobson  and his team at Stanford University, have models for the World, and each individual country. And Tony Seba the, dare I say genius, when it comes to disruptive technology and his RethinkX team, also conclude that the marginal price of leccy will trend towards zero as RE costs keep falling, and overcapacity kicks in. However, distribution costs of leccy are typically 2x more than 'normal' prices. So wholesale average was about 5p, and retail prices were about 15p.

**Storage in the UK is just starting to rollout for RE demand and supply balancing. Only now do the economics start to make sense. However batts have been winning the more profitable Grid contracts for FFR (firm frequency response) and peaker services, for several years now. Also the Grid has recently pointed out that battery storage, may be able to help maintain grid frequency, typically managed via the enormous inertia of spinning steam turbines (in gas, coal and nuclear powerstations). Batts can do this as inverters can dictate the frequency that the leccy is produced at, thus helping to keep frequency close to the UK grid 50hz. This is quite a recent thought, so I hesitate to say conclusion.

ComicGeek

No one's mentioned the planned 23% increase in fuel duty noted in the budget from March 2023, which is going to be much more significant for ICE drivers than road tax will be for EV drivers...

Herzlos

ComicGeek said:

No one's mentioned the planned 23% increase in fuel duty noted in the budget from March 2023, which is going to be much more significant for ICE drivers than road tax will be for EV drivers...

This thread is about EV bashing, not logic  

ididgetwhereiamtoday

ComicGeek said:

No one's mentioned the planned 23% increase in fuel duty noted in the budget from March 2023, which is going to be much more significant for ICE drivers than road tax will be for EV drivers...

That’s not making ICE vehicles very attractive now is it???!!!!

Martyn1981

Herzlos said:

ComicGeek said:

No one's mentioned the planned 23% increase in fuel duty noted in the budget from March 2023, which is going to be much more significant for ICE drivers than road tax will be for EV drivers...

This thread is about EV bashing, not logic  

EV bashing, Shirley not?

Personally, I find it slightly comical when some folk (none on here, of course) use leading / loaded questions, to imply a negative, on the basis that nobody knows what they are up to. After all, it's not like the tactic is so old that it earned itself a nickname in 2010, and has even featured in a Southpark episode.

Urban Dictionary - Just asking questions

Rational Wiki - Just asking questions