Smart meter removal/Economy 10

GoneWestWoman

As an update to my original post.  I submitted my complaint to the energy Ombudsman and their decision found in my favour with an offered settlement of £150 compensation and a £102.36 payment from Octopus Energy which I challenged.  Using the current tariff rates the difference in my monthly heating bill is nearer the original £400 per month, not £102.36 per year!  The Ombudsman agrees with my calculations and is still investigating the error.  They have suggested an increase to £200 as compensation but I feelI still have to fight their decision as this offer will help for this year but will not be enough for the next 10 years.  My Landlord has pointed out that their information stating that I don’t need their approval to change meters is also incorrect.  I have taken legal advice which suggests that unless I can prove that a “ change of contract” occurred incorrectly then I have a very slight chance of winning my battle in a Court of Law and I would need to pay the legal costs myself - currently estimated at £900 plus VAT.  So the fight continues after 7 months.

GoneWestWoman

And now I have heard that I have won my case against Octopus Energy!  

During the recent cold snap I had ice on the inside of my windows so I turned the heating on.  The In Home Reader showed the hourly price of £4.41.  The only other usage was a single low energy lightbulb, my fridge and freezer and the digital clocks on my microwave and cooker.

I had the heating on for 2 hours between 19:00 and 21:00.

The next morning, making sure I had exactly the same lightbulb on and no other changes, I again turned the boiler on at 07:00 (currently within the Economy 7 tariff) and the hourly rate was £1.62.

I took photos of the screens at the time and sent them to the ombudsman who then upped their game and stepped up the investigation after eight months.  I had already sent them details of OFGEM’s findings and the provision of extra protection for consumers who were/are on restricted meters.  The photos seemed to be the catalyst for them realising just what an impact the change to a Smart meter means in terms of financial costs and they have now instructed Octopus to source an Economy 10 meter and install it.  In the meantime they have told me to use my heating and cooking within the original Economy 10 hours and Octopus will have to refund the difference when they have fitted the replacement meter.

I still think the easiest thing would be to leave the dreaded Smart meter in situ and calculate the original Economy 10 hours at the lower rate.  This would also mean that thousands of other consumers can have a Smart meter and won’t be punished for only having electricity as their energy source.

A long 9 months for me but hopefully Octopus will now get their staff/representatives properly trained when talking to customers about switching to a Smart meter?

Happy Christmas.

GoneWestWoman

Update.  Octopus Energy has replied saying they cannot source or fit an Economy 10 meter nor can they calculate the difference I have been charged since they removed the E10 hours.  

I advised that it was relatively simple to calculate- just use their own half hourly readings and deduct the difference between the higher “peak rate” and the “off-peak rate” for the previously billed hours.

The Ombudsman is now renegotiating with them.

Where does that leave me though?  I have not abused the previous hours for my heating or cooking, luckily the weather has been unseasonably warm and I’ve only needed the heating on for approximately 5 days in the past month.

At my wits end!

Spoonie_Turtle

Hello, I don't have the brainpower to read through your whole thread but a thought occurred to me today - have you been in direct contact with Greg Jackson himself, at all?  If not, definitely worth a try; he's publicly available on Twitter and I think his e-mail address is simply greg@octopus.energy

GoneWestWoman

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Hello, I don't have the brainpower to read through your whole thread but a thought occurred to me today - have you been in direct contact with Greg Jackson himself, at all?  If not, definitely worth a try; he's publicly available on Twitter and I think his e-mail address is simply greg@octopus.energy

Hi, thanks for your thoughts.

yes, I have emailed Greg Jackson, but just received a reply from one of his lackey’s thanking me for my efforts but telling me there’s nothing they can do 🤦🏼‍♀️.  It was fairly early on in my attempt to sort out the problem and I was concentrating on getting the Ombudsman to intervene so at that point realised that Octopus weren’t interested in sorting out the mess they’d made.  

I’m still trying to fight on behalf of others in this situation and havn’t given up on the whole debacle yet!

My MP was great at replying to the emails I sent to him and I intend raising the issue again when the cold weather kicks back in.

Spoonie_Turtle

AnnieRichards said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Hello, I don't have the brainpower to read through your whole thread but a thought occurred to me today - have you been in direct contact with Greg Jackson himself, at all?  If not, definitely worth a try; he's publicly available on Twitter and I think his e-mail address is simply greg@octopus.energy

Hi, thanks for your thoughts.

yes, I have emailed Greg Jackson, but just received a reply from one of his lackey’s thanking me for my efforts but telling me there’s nothing they can do 🤦🏼‍♀️.  It was fairly early on in my attempt to sort out the problem and I was concentrating on getting the Ombudsman to intervene so at that point realised that Octopus weren’t interested in sorting out the mess they’d made.  

I’m still trying to fight on behalf of others in this situation and havn’t given up on the whole debacle yet!

My MP was great at replying to the emails I sent to him and I intend raising the issue again when the cold weather kicks back in.

That's a shame!  If you're on Twitter (or even create an account just for this) he reads everything personally.  Especially given we'll be going into winter again and you're stuck on such an inappropriate tariff, could be worth a try - nothing to lose, at this point.

Good to hear your MP is responsive, though.  I hope with his help you'll be able to get some resolution, somehow.

Scot_39

Posts like this worry and dismay me as a current e10 user.

I've always thought of it as a standard smart meter configured for e10 billing rather than a standard smart meter configured for e7 billing WOULD BE MORE ACCURATE ( either with or without 5th port ALCS on board - although not sure if the 5th port needs the second measuring element of part b or spec - but even that has a 1x4 time of use matrix.)

Any smart meter configurable for e7 could according to a quick read of govt spec - at least this final draft - for early models - could be software / or at least factory configurable for e10.

And it certainly worked for smets 1 meters like my own.


This is one of the uk govt early drafts for smart meter requirements as submitted to EU.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68898/smart_meters_equipment_technical_spec_version_2.pdf

Page 34, 5.4.7.2 Time of use with block pricing

Refers 4 registers x 8  time bands

E7 can be 2 rate registers often 1 peak one off peak, but in some regions its 2 off peak 2 peak time zones

My e10 is 2 rate registers and 3 off peak and so 3 peak time zones.

Both should on first read fit within that scope.

And that e10 2 rare 6 periods as I say is handled by the old smets1 smart meter fitted by EON - a Secure Liberty 100 with external contactor (rather than the simpler install 5 port 110) that was often used by likes of EOn, Ovo etc for e7 as well.


Now it could be that has been dropped in a later issue for the smets 2 devices, but the specs ov some liberty smets2 like the 116, also say allows block tine of use tariffs. Anyone got a link for the final smets 2 meter standard  ?

And suspect Octopus if wanted to offer the tariff could use the 1/2 hr usage data to bill e10 rates just as it can to do with many of it's other smart tariffs - iirc uses that for agile and maybe smart ev.

Assuming the meter was set and OP gave permission to update supplier with 1/2 hourly readings.


But I am afraid the c500m homes (as of c2020 Ofgem reports - itself down from 700,000 in 2015 - so in reality now lower  ??? ) on non E7 restricted meters (the remaining 3,500,000 of the c4m RM) are fast becoming the abandoned minority.

By suppliers, but only because Ofgem allows it.

And if I lose e10, suspect / fear will need to upgrade heating at a cost of £1000s or see increased bills in the £100s pa - which for me is months worth.

@AnnieRichards - did you reach a fair settlement in the end after the Jan 12th post.  I hope so but fear not given lack of updates.

And do you have a link to the added protections document you referred to in the previous 26 Dec 22 Post. 

I'd seen a voluntary draft thing on Cit  Advice for early smart roll out and complex metering schemes, but that was more about going sr and then back iirc, but from posts here, some suppliers have not been compliant on that either.

And one poster who lost e10, after upgrade wasn't put back on e10 by EON.  Even after Ombudsman, who iirc accepted EOn Next challange after initial decision.

Spoonie_Turtle

Scot_39 said:

And suspect Octopus if wanted to offer the tariff could use the 1/2 hr usage data to bill e10 rates just as it can to do with many of it's other smart tariffs - iirc uses that for agile and maybe smart ev.

They do this for Flux and most likely for Cosy as well.  In theory they certainly should be able to do it for E10 but I don't know how much work goes into putting a new set of tariff rates into the system, and (from posts on the other thread https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80250679/#Comment_80250679 ) it's clear they're not going to.

GoneWestWoman

Scot_39 said:

Posts like this worry and dismay me as a current e10 user.

I've always thought of it as a standard smart meter configured for e10 billing rather than a standard smart meter configured for e7 billing WOULD BE MORE ACCURATE ( either with or without 5th port ALCS on board - although not sure if the 5th port needs the second measuring element of part b or spec - but even that has a 1x4 time of use matrix.)

Any smart meter configurable for e7 could according to a quick read of govt spec - at least this final draft - for early models - could be software / or at least factory configurable for e10.

And it certainly worked for smets 1 meters like my own.


This is one of the uk govt early drafts for smart meter requirements as submitted to EU.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68898/smart_meters_equipment_technical_spec_version_2.pdf

Page 34, 5.4.7.2 Time of use with block pricing

Refers 4 registers x 8  time bands

E7 can be 2 rate registers often 1 peak one off peak, but in some regions its 2 off peak 2 peak time zones

My e10 is 2 rate registers and 3 off peak and so 3 peak time zones.

Both should on first read fit within that scope.

And that e10 2 rare 6 periods as I say is handled by the old smets1 smart meter fitted by EON - a Secure Liberty 100 with external contactor (rather than the simpler install 5 port 110) that was often used by likes of EOn, Ovo etc for e7 as well.


Now it could be that has been dropped in a later issue for the smets 2 devices, but the specs ov some liberty smets2 like the 116, also say allows block tine of use tariffs. Anyone got a link for the final smets 2 meter standard  ?

And suspect Octopus if wanted to offer the tariff could use the 1/2 hr usage data to bill e10 rates just as it can to do with many of it's other smart tariffs - iirc uses that for agile and maybe smart ev.

Assuming the meter was set and OP gave permission to update supplier with 1/2 hourly readings.


But I am afraid the c500m homes (as of c2020 Ofgem reports - itself down from 700,000 in 2015 - so in reality now lower  ??? ) on non E7 restricted meters (the remaining 3,500,000 of the c4m RM) are fast becoming the abandoned minority.

By suppliers, but only because Ofgem allows it.

And if I lose e10, suspect / fear will need to upgrade heating at a cost of £1000s or see increased bills in the £100s pa - which for me is months worth.

@AnnieRichards - did you reach a fair settlement in the end after the Jan 12th post.  I hope so but fear not given lack of updates.

And do you have a link to the added protections document you referred to in the previous 26 Dec 22 Post. 

I'd seen a voluntary draft thing on Cit  Advice for early smart roll out and complex metering schemes, but that was more about going sr and then back iirc, but from posts here, some suppliers have not been compliant on that either.

And one poster who lost e10, after upgrade wasn't put back on e10 by EON.  Even after Ombudsman, who iirc accepted EOn Next challange after initial decision.

I received compensation of approx £800 (paid into my energy account, which is fine because I’ll need it for this winter and had already paid that amount out from my bank account).

The Ombudsman instructed Octopus Energy to “source and fit” an E10 meter but they refused stating that none were being manufactured and they did not have the authority to force someone to make one for me.  So that went nowhere.

 I tried to persuade them to put me on their Cosy tariff which gives cheaper electricity overnight for 4(?) hours plus 2 cheap periods during the day and evening BUT with a much more expensive period between 16:00 and 19:00 to discourage use during the peak period.  This would have worked perfectly because the E10 wouldn’t have provided cheap electricity at that time anyway.  However Octopus came back to me and said they would not put me on that tariff unless I have a heat source pump.

I simply cannot afford to replace the whole heating system (and it’s a rented property anyway) so that was that, as far as they were concerned.

 I continue to scan the energy providers looking for a suitable E10 replacement and will post on here IF I find anything, but no luck yet.  It’s not been the top of my priority list to be honest, but with winter looming I’ll get back on it soon.

Whatever you do DON’T let anyone replace your meter with a SMETS2 one until the very last minute because there are no E10 alternatives on these new meters to date.

Scot_39

Again - that worries me - as by implication - that means that the (as of June according to Elexon) there were c1m with RTS metering - some maybe on E10, others on even more complex multirate systems.

And makes me think - are they really just being forced onto bog standard E7 metering ?

Which for many - especially in Scotland - just wont cut it on a winters day - where SP have complex RTS tariffs that actually extend off peak hours seasonally - at least 2 of which allow in theory between 0 and 14 hours depending on weather for NSH circuits - to allow enough heating.