MSE News: Households to get £400 boost to help with rising energy bills

polymaff

Martin Lewis said:

"A £300 'Pensioner Cost of Living Payment' top-up will be paid in November or December to the 8 million UK households in receipt of the Winter Fuel Payment. For most, it will be paid by direct debit."

I know that this is an exact copy from the HM Treasury web-site, but isn't this utter nonsense?

Ultrasonic

polymaff said:

Martin Lewis said:

"A £300 'Pensioner Cost of Living Payment' top-up will be paid in November or December to the 8 million UK households in receipt of the Winter Fuel Payment. For most, it will be paid by direct debit."

I know that this is an exact copy from the HM Treasury web-site, but isn't this utter nonsense?

In what way are you confident it is nonsense?

Spoonie_Turtle

NedS said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

NedS said:

[Deleted User] said:

porter098 said:

So the £650 pounds per household, is that per household as long as one person in the household is getting UC or is that per person if more than one person is getting UC and if more than one person is getting UC and it’s per household who gets the grant?

I read it £650 pounds per household NOT per person.

I don't see how they could implement that (easily). The only way I see it being feasible is for it to be a payment of £650 for all eligible claims (as opposed to households). That means a single UC/JSA etc claimant gets £650. A joint couple claim would also receive £650. But equally, a couple claiming UC (and receiving £650), with 3 adult children all living at home and with their own UC claims would also each receive £650 (£650 for mum and dad, plus £650 each for each adult child also living at home and claiming UC/JSA).

Where there is more than one eligible claim per household, how would they determine who is responsible for the energy bills?

What about 4 young people living together, each with a claim, and each responsible for part of the bills?

Could it be as simple as as a yes/no question, 'does anyone in the household claim an eligible benefit'?

The WHD tended to be administered based on whether the account holder or a partner claimed, or if they had a disabled child, so there were mechanisms for confirming those already.

It says the £650 will be paid by DWP so I'm assuming it will be an automatic extra payment through the benefits system to anyone in receipt of a qualifying benefit. A blunt instrument, no further eligibility than that.

Thanks, I hadn't registered that.

Well, it's for cost of living not just energy, so if multiple adults all on low incomes live in the same household, it will help towards food and other essentials as well as energy.

MattMattMattUK

NedS said:

DerwentMailman said:

porter098 said:

So the £650 pounds per household, is that per household as long as one person in the household is getting UC or is that per person if more than one person is getting UC and if more than one person is getting UC and it’s per household who gets the grant?

I read it £650 pounds per household NOT per person.

I don't see how they could implement that (easily). The only way I see it being feasible is for it to be a payment of £650 for all eligible claims (as opposed to households). That means a single UC/JSA etc claimant gets £650. A joint couple claim would also receive £650. But equally, a couple claiming UC (and receiving £650), with 3 adult children all living at home and with their own UC claims would also each receive £650 (£650 for mum and dad, plus £650 each for each adult child also living at home and claiming UC/JSA).

Where there is more than one eligible claim per household, how would they determine who is responsible for the energy bills?

What about 4 young people living together, each with a claim, and each responsible for part of the bills?

UC claims have a joint component, so I imagine it will be pretty easy to define households getting only one payment, not one per claimant. This is already set up for the housing and child components of UC so it should be pretty easy to do. My assumption and from the way everything is worded seems to be that if there are two adults in the household only one of them would get the payment, which one might be the slightly more complicated issue.

The documents published specifically say:
This includes all households receiving the following benefits: Universal Credit

It would seem to be a per household grant, but I am happy to be corrected if anyone has confirmation otherwise. 

NedS

MattMattMattUK said:

NedS said:

DerwentMailman said:

porter098 said:

So the £650 pounds per household, is that per household as long as one person in the household is getting UC or is that per person if more than one person is getting UC and if more than one person is getting UC and it’s per household who gets the grant?

I read it £650 pounds per household NOT per person.

I don't see how they could implement that (easily). The only way I see it being feasible is for it to be a payment of £650 for all eligible claims (as opposed to households). That means a single UC/JSA etc claimant gets £650. A joint couple claim would also receive £650. But equally, a couple claiming UC (and receiving £650), with 3 adult children all living at home and with their own UC claims would also each receive £650 (£650 for mum and dad, plus £650 each for each adult child also living at home and claiming UC/JSA).

Where there is more than one eligible claim per household, how would they determine who is responsible for the energy bills?

What about 4 young people living together, each with a claim, and each responsible for part of the bills?

UC claims have a joint component, so I imagine it will be pretty easy to define households getting only one payment, not one per claimant. This is already set up for the housing and child components of UC so it should be pretty easy to do. My assumption and from the way everything is worded seems to be that if there are two adults in the household only one of them would get the payment, which one might be the slightly more complicated issue.

The documents published specifically say:
This includes all households receiving the following benefits: Universal Credit

It would seem to be a per household grant, but I am happy to be corrected if anyone has confirmation otherwise. 

So where 4 young people share a property (tenancy), and are all responsible for paying a share of the bills, how would you/they decide which individual qualifies for the £650 when all are in receipt of a qualifying benefit? Why would one be entitled to receive help towards their cost of living whereas the other 3 are not?

I think it would be impossibly difficult, at such short notice, to implement a scheme that pays on anything other than a per claim basis*, which will inevitably mean that some 'households' will receive more than one payment where it contains more than one benefit unit.

* - as previously seen, the most effective way to achieve per household is through the council tax system, not through the benefits system.

Spoonie_Turtle

MattMattMattUK said:

NedS said:

DerwentMailman said:

porter098 said:

So the £650 pounds per household, is that per household as long as one person in the household is getting UC or is that per person if more than one person is getting UC and if more than one person is getting UC and it’s per household who gets the grant?

I read it £650 pounds per household NOT per person.

I don't see how they could implement that (easily). The only way I see it being feasible is for it to be a payment of £650 for all eligible claims (as opposed to households). That means a single UC/JSA etc claimant gets £650. A joint couple claim would also receive £650. But equally, a couple claiming UC (and receiving £650), with 3 adult children all living at home and with their own UC claims would also each receive £650 (£650 for mum and dad, plus £650 each for each adult child also living at home and claiming UC/JSA).

Where there is more than one eligible claim per household, how would they determine who is responsible for the energy bills?

What about 4 young people living together, each with a claim, and each responsible for part of the bills?

UC claims have a joint component, so I imagine it will be pretty easy to define households getting only one payment, not one per claimant. This is already set up for the housing and child components of UC so it should be pretty easy to do. My assumption and from the way everything is worded seems to be that if there are two adults in the household only one of them would get the payment, which one might be the slightly more complicated issue.

The documents published specifically say:
This includes all households receiving the following benefits: Universal Credit

It would seem to be a per household grant, but I am happy to be corrected if anyone has confirmation otherwise. 

But 'household' in benefits terms doesn't always mean the same as ordinary usage of 'household'.  For communication to the public they may be using it to mean 'benefit unit'.  We will have to wait for clarification I think.

E.g. a couple claiming UC, with a grown-up child also claiming UC in their own right.  And they can't just judge by whether people receive the housing element either - Not receiving the housing element doesn't mean they aren't an individual household, because people who are paying mortgages aren't eligible 

Edit: for clarity, it is also not solely for people on UC.

Edit 2: also, which took me a bit of time to remember as well as evidenced by my previous replies - this is for the cost of living; food, transport, clothing (maybe less so for adults but kids don't stop growing just because everything is expensive), not just energy.  The WHD, energy rebate via council tax, and the extra £400 are essentially on a physical household basis, but these other payments appear to be on a claimant basis (which makes sense - claiming as an individual signifies you have all your own bills including food, whereas as a couple or family it reflects the expectation of costs being lower per person than if they were all separate people living separate lives).

polymaff

Ultrasonic said:

polymaff said:

Martin Lewis said:

"A £300 'Pensioner Cost of Living Payment' top-up will be paid in November or December to the 8 million UK households in receipt of the Winter Fuel Payment. For most, it will be paid by direct debit."

I know that this is an exact copy from the HM Treasury web-site, but isn't this utter nonsense?

In what way are you confident it is nonsense?

Direct Debits allow the receiver of the transfer to order a payment from the payee's account.  I doubt that that is what 8 million pensioners will do - or the government permit.  Might be an idea to try it though.  £10billion, perhaps?

Seriously, though, just think about it.  This tosh is put up - maybe also proof-read - by those incapable of judging whether it is right.  And the media just take it without noticing that it is nonsense.

Who has ever received their Winter Fuel Payment by Direct Debit?

It is Marriage Allowance Transfer all over again.

MattMattMattUK

NedS said:

MattMattMattUK said:

NedS said:

DerwentMailman said:

porter098 said:

So the £650 pounds per household, is that per household as long as one person in the household is getting UC or is that per person if more than one person is getting UC and if more than one person is getting UC and it’s per household who gets the grant?

I read it £650 pounds per household NOT per person.

I don't see how they could implement that (easily). The only way I see it being feasible is for it to be a payment of £650 for all eligible claims (as opposed to households). That means a single UC/JSA etc claimant gets £650. A joint couple claim would also receive £650. But equally, a couple claiming UC (and receiving £650), with 3 adult children all living at home and with their own UC claims would also each receive £650 (£650 for mum and dad, plus £650 each for each adult child also living at home and claiming UC/JSA).

Where there is more than one eligible claim per household, how would they determine who is responsible for the energy bills?

What about 4 young people living together, each with a claim, and each responsible for part of the bills?

UC claims have a joint component, so I imagine it will be pretty easy to define households getting only one payment, not one per claimant. This is already set up for the housing and child components of UC so it should be pretty easy to do. My assumption and from the way everything is worded seems to be that if there are two adults in the household only one of them would get the payment, which one might be the slightly more complicated issue.

The documents published specifically say:
This includes all households receiving the following benefits: Universal Credit

It would seem to be a per household grant, but I am happy to be corrected if anyone has confirmation otherwise. 

So where 4 young people share a property (tenancy), and are all responsible for paying a share of the bills, how would you/they decide which individual qualifies for the £650 when all are in receipt of a qualifying benefit? Why would one be entitled to receive help towards their cost of living whereas the other 3 are not?

Those kind of situations might be rather complicated, but it will likely come down to whether they are joint or individual claims. If their claims are a joint claim, my guess would be divided by four, if their claims are individual claims then they may well not be treated as a grouped household, in the same way that housing benefits are calculated, if their housing benefit claim is joint then I think that will be key.

NedS said:

I think it would be impossibly difficult, at such short notice, to implement a scheme that pays on anything other than a per claim basis*, which will inevitably mean that some 'households' will receive more than one payment where it contains more than one benefit unit.

My understanding is that "household" in a UC context does not mean dwelling, eg. the four individual UC claimants may actually be deemed four households, but if two of them were in a relationship and had a joint claim then they would be three households, it all relates to how certain components, mostly housing benefit are calculated. Any system could probably be designed in days, but it will always have loopholes and gaps.

NedS said:

* - as previously seen, the most effective way to achieve per household is through the council tax system, not through the benefits system.

To a large extent I agree, but that also only works on a blunt instrument way in that it makes it much harder to target lower income households. Personally I do not think that the government have handled this well, but whilst I have different views on how the system could operate an overall "better" system would be difficult and always make many people unhappy. When surveys showed that 80% of people wanted "free money" and most of them wanted free money over £1k they were never going to be able to please people, the elements targeted at those in need are somewhat pragmatic, the £400 per household is a bribe and a total waste, it would be better spent on investing in education, health and social care, or even just fixing the potholes in the roads. 

Ultrasonic

polymaff said:

Ultrasonic said:

polymaff said:

Martin Lewis said:

"A £300 'Pensioner Cost of Living Payment' top-up will be paid in November or December to the 8 million UK households in receipt of the Winter Fuel Payment. For most, it will be paid by direct debit."

I know that this is an exact copy from the HM Treasury web-site, but isn't this utter nonsense?

In what way are you confident it is nonsense?

Direct Debits allow the receiver of the transfer to order a payment from the payee's account.  I doubt that that is what 8 million pensioners will do - or the government permit.  Might be an idea to try it though.  £10billion, perhaps?

Seriously, though, just think about it.  This tosh is put up - maybe also proof-read - by those incapable of judging whether it is right.  And the media just take it without noticing that it is nonsense.

Who has ever received their Winter Fuel Payment by Direct Debit?

It is Marriage Allowance Transfer all over again.

Ah, you were specifically picking up on the DD element! You may have a point  .

QrizB

GaleSF63 said:

superkoopauk said:

It's a big improvement on the previous proposal.  I would still like the option for the well off to refuse the £400 which could then be redistributed among the most in need perhaps at the start of next year?

The kind of people who would refuse the payment are the kind who would hopefully donate it. Some will anyway. 

If they are well off enough to pay tax, they can Gift Aid it to a registered charity and the charity will get £500 out of the deal.