The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

Bonniepurple

Herzlos said:

Burning EV's is certainly a concern, though I think the concerns are somewhat overblown but I don't know if we really have enough information yet as to the causes. How many are because of faults, accidents or vandalism?

If they become enough of a concern, then a solution will be found. I'm thinking the most obvious thing is to essentially drop a container over the top of them filled with foam and leaving them to burn out, or lifting them into a container and sealed off.

How practical will that be though?  The vehicle I saw on Trucking Hell was deemed so dangerous that the Fire Brigade had to follow immediately behind the transporter in case it reignited before it got to the skip of water.  Hopefully it will be a rare thing, but if there’s a smash and say 3 EVs all need a separate fire crew to escort them, what happens to the rest of the area in terms of fire cover?  Okay in a big city, but in a rural area there’s a lot of miles between stations.

Herzlos

A properly set up container vehicle wouldn't need to be escorted by a fire crew, assuming it's suitably reinforced and insulated.

Once it becomes a significant problem, a solution will be found for it.

silverwhistle

Elliott.T123 said:

For me it still comes down to range, although I accept I am in a somewhat special situation. My wife and I have family in Edinburgh and visit anywhere from 4-7 times a year. We drive up from the south coast. Depending on route it is anywhere from 430-480 miles and that is assuming no roadworks/diversions. Add in the fact that you will almost always end up sat in traffic at some point and there is no way of doing that journey without stopping for a charge. Currently we do the journey in two stints with a 15 minute stop about 2/3 of the way. 

I do also worry massively about the infrastructure and the impact on the electrical grid. The UK does not currently have a huge excess of power, what happens when every vehicle in he country is suddenly connected to the grid as well.... right now we would have brown outs, until we have increased out generation capacity we cant tell everyone to have an EV.

Blimey, you've got more stamina and bigger bladder than I have! Even in a long range ICE I wouldn't do that trip with only one short stop, and DOT recommendation is stopping every two hours (which I certainly extend when I'm fresh). But with the longer range models and increasing and faster charging opportunities on the main routes you might be pleasantly surprised how little change you'd need to adapt.

As for the infrastructure National Grid are relaxed about it in terms of delivering enough power, although the DNOs do need to get their fingers out in delivering it to some of the hubs. There's enough diversity not to have everybody charging at once, and many charge overnight only once or twice a week. Looking at the weather I might even charge from my solar on Friday, and many like me have the range and mileage that we can forgo charging if needed without impacting or car usage.

But the third point regarding home charging is probably the biggest drawback. At home I charge very cheaply with overnight if necessary and don't pay VAT, but commercial chargers are far more expensive and charge VAT. We need a bit of leadership on this issue but unfortunately he's having a drink at the moment..

Jenni_D

silverwhistle said:

At home I charge very cheaply with overnight if necessary and don't pay VAT

How not? Are you on a special, non-VAT consumer tariff (that doesn't exist)? (VAT on consumer energy use is still applied, albeit at 5% rather than 20%).

Grumpy_chap

Well, for those that are primarily interested in the "monthlies", I was just sent an offer that makes an EV very comparable to an equivalent ICE car.  PCP offer:

• Citroen C4 EV
• >200 mile range
• £5k deposit
• 4 years
• £250 per month
• £14k balloon
• 6k miles per year

https://www.charterscitroen.com/offers/c4-sense-100kw-electric-vehicle-pcp-offer/

4-star NCAP
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/citroën/c4/42889

For the equivalent petrol car, there is a lower deposit, higher monthly payment but I could not see the balloon payment for want of searching.  Without that, the total cost cannot be compared.  I am sure the balloon figure will be there, and in the most obvious place, but I just cannot see it right now.

[Deleted User]

Grumpy_chap said:

Well, for those that are primarily interested in the "monthlies", I was just sent an offer that makes an EV very comparable to an equivalent ICE car.  PCP offer:

• Citroen C4 EV
• >200 mile range
• £5k deposit
• 4 years
• £250 per month
• £14k balloon
• 6k miles per year

https://www.charterscitroen.com/offers/c4-sense-100kw-electric-vehicle-pcp-offer/

4-star NCAP
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/citroën/c4/42889

For the equivalent petrol car, there is a lower deposit, higher monthly payment but I could not see the balloon payment for want of searching.  Without that, the total cost cannot be compared.  I am sure the balloon figure will be there, and in the most obvious place, but I just cannot see it right now.

So I can see how it is a good comparison for EV vs equivalent ICE but still can't see how it is a good deal overall if you are trying to save money on motoring.

Over 4 years you pay £17k plus £600 in fuel (2.5p / mile 6k miles per year)

So the real monthly cost £366 and you have nothing to show for it at the end unless you have £14k sat in the bank to pay the balloon - which I'd question why you'd take that deal if you had £14k in the bank along with your £5k deposit (£19k)

I bought a £10k used ICE in January, it does 45 mpg so will cost £4.4k if I did 6k miles per year over 4 years - total cost over 4 years is £14.4k or £300 a month but I actually have a car at the end of it that will be worth maybe £3-4k

The £10k ICE I've got is bigger and much higher spec than the C4 EV in your example and non of the downsides of EV that we've discussed in this thread.

Of course I haven't included servicing costs and potential for repairs as it is not a new car but it would need to cost me a further £6-7k in repairs and servicing to cost me more than the C4.

Oh and factor in the above deal you quoted costs 10p / mile for anything over 6k per year and I have unlimited mileage allowance on my ICE - I do about 15k per year so once that cost is added I'm winning by miles.

Oh and I haven't sponged a £1500 grant from the government that ultimately comes from the tax that we all pay or paid for a charger at home or paving my environmentally friendly garden so I don't have to pay public charger prices which are 10 times the cost (+£5k on the C4)

Using the same formula Pettrix uses I'm about £25k in profit.

Grumpy_chap

Deleted_User said:

still can't see how it is a good deal overall if you are trying to save money on motoring.

Oh, I agree.

It is fairly regularly mentioned in these forums that there are a great many motorists for whom it's "all about the monthlies".  That is not my approach, and not yours, but clearly there are many new cars on the road.  The vast majority of those new cars are all via PCP / lease / company car (which are all variations on the same theme).

Without all those people, there would be no used cars for others to buy at £10k, nor for bangernomics fans to buy at £500.

Another theme of discussion that arises with relative frequency in the threads is all about whether it is MSE to have a new car, or only MSE to have the cheapest car that will do the job.  I take a middle-ground that, so long as you can afford the new car, then MSE is having that new car at the most cost-effective way. 
The MSEr is not restricted to only needs and never a want.  The MSEr does not have to drive a bangernomics car, eat solely beans on toast, or only wear F&F clothing - if the MSEr can afford a shiny new Rolls Royce, caviar and Versace, that's fine but they should still enjoy that life-style in the most cost-effective way they can.

What I also feel is that these discussions around costs differences between EV and ICE need to be on a similar basis.  So, compare a new ICE with new EV (or even include nearly new EV because of the capital premium for EV).  The comparisons between a bangernomics ICE versus brand new EV that some have made are entirely spurious.

If someone bought a £10k ICE or a £10k EV, they'll will be lower overall cost than either the new C4 EV or the C4 ICE.  That much is clear.

Herzlos

All most people want from a car is a reliable way to get from A to B for a fixed monthly cost. Newish cars with a PCP/PCH satisfy all of that, come with warranties, etc.
You could get an older car that is problem free (I've had a few) but eventually something will fail and require a big bill, especially if you're not mechanically minded and can't sort it yourself.

I used to always buy cheap old luxury barges and run them until they get expensive to MOT, but at the time I didn't actually need a car for anything so having away for a week to get welded wasn't an issue. Now the more I rely on a car they newer I go to try and mitigate the risk of being without it for long.

Martyn1981

[Deleted User] said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Well, for those that are primarily interested in the "monthlies", I was just sent an offer that makes an EV very comparable to an equivalent ICE car.  PCP offer:

• Citroen C4 EV
• >200 mile range
• £5k deposit
• 4 years
• £250 per month
• £14k balloon
• 6k miles per year

https://www.charterscitroen.com/offers/c4-sense-100kw-electric-vehicle-pcp-offer/

4-star NCAP
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/citroën/c4/42889

For the equivalent petrol car, there is a lower deposit, higher monthly payment but I could not see the balloon payment for want of searching.  Without that, the total cost cannot be compared.  I am sure the balloon figure will be there, and in the most obvious place, but I just cannot see it right now.

So I can see how it is a good comparison for EV vs equivalent ICE but still can't see how it is a good deal overall if you are trying to save money on motoring.

Over 4 years you pay £17k plus £600 in fuel (2.5p / mile 6k miles per year)

So the real monthly cost £366 and you have nothing to show for it at the end unless you have £14k sat in the bank to pay the balloon - which I'd question why you'd take that deal if you had £14k in the bank along with your £5k deposit (£19k)

I bought a £10k used ICE in January, it does 45 mpg so will cost £4.4k if I did 6k miles per year over 4 years - total cost over 4 years is £14.4k or £300 a month but I actually have a car at the end of it that will be worth maybe £3-4k

The £10k ICE I've got is bigger and much higher spec than the C4 EV in your example and non of the downsides of EV that we've discussed in this thread.

Of course I haven't included servicing costs and potential for repairs as it is not a new car but it would need to cost me a further £6-7k in repairs and servicing to cost me more than the C4.

Oh and factor in the above deal you quoted costs 10p / mile for anything over 6k per year and I have unlimited mileage allowance on my ICE - I do about 15k per year so once that cost is added I'm winning by miles.

Oh and I haven't sponged a £1500 grant from the government that ultimately comes from the tax that we all pay or paid for a charger at home or paving my environmentally friendly garden so I don't have to pay public charger prices which are 10 times the cost (+£5k on the C4)

Using the same formula Pettrix uses I'm about £25k in profit.

You're not comparing like for like. Grumpy chap has shown new BEV to new ICE, that's fair. Then we can have SH BEV to SH ICE, but not too many BEV's yet, and eventually 'bangernomics' for BEV v's ICE, but that's a long way off, plus the BEV will always (most likely) cost £'000's more than the ICE, but save £'000's more in fuel.

Also I don't get the 'sponging' comment about the PiG (Plug in grant), what about the unpaid externalities of the ICE, such as AGW impact costs, and localised health impact costs? Discussions and comparisons need to be fair, and in good faith. Plus of course the PiG helps to increase sales, and eventually lead to cheaper SH models in the future.

Martyn1981

Just to show (perhaps) why the ultra-fast charging network in the UK is so poor, it's because the Gov are too busy claiming the opposite. Check out the article from a guest contributor:

Sales of electric vehicles reach an all-time high while UK boasts one of the most extensive networks of rapid chargers in Europe.

Courtesy of Department for Transport, Office for Zero Emission Vehicles, and The Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP

UK Electric Vehicle Sales Continue To Soar In Green Revolution

During the meeting, the Transport Secretary is expected to highlight the UK’s world-leading progress in the switch to EVs to date, with around 600 new public chargepoints installed each month and one of the most extensive networks of rapid charging in Europe.