The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

[Deleted User]

Bonniepurple said:

One thing that I have heard (from watching stuff like Trucking Hell!) is that if an EV catches fire (accident/caught up in a blaze) then it’s much, much harder and more dangerous to extinguish than an ICE vehicle.  In one episode they had to submerge an EV in a skip full of water for some time before the vehicle was safe.  There was also this very recently:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-61543634

I suppose I’m wondering what the safety and practical implications of EVs and fires are.  It sounds (to my very untrained brain) like they would be more resource heavy than the equivalent in an ICE.  I know vehicle fires are rare, but…

Good point, EV cars caused over £300 million of damage including a capsized cargo ship and 4,000 cars lost all because the fire in the EV batteries could not be contained.

Back on land, it seems EV car fires are more than double the rate of ICE car fires:

Data obtained through a Freedom of Information (FOI) request revealed that in 2019 the London Fire Brigade dealt with 54 electric vehicle fires compared with 1,898 petrol and diesel fires.

Vehicle registration numbers from the Department for Transport (DfT) show there are 50,000-plus plug-in cars licensed in the capital out of a total 4.63 million licensed cars.

Looking at the London Fire Brigade data, that would suggest an incident rate of 0.04% for petrol and diesel car fires, while the rate for plug-in vehicle is more than double at 0.1%. So far this year, there have been 1,021 petrol and diesel fires and 27 EV fires in the capital.

And they also seem to be more difficult to extinguish and the fire brigade are advised to just let them burn which will cause more damage and disruption than an ICE car fire, costing more money. They even present a danger for weeks after the initial event. 

For the fire brigade, the real problem when it comes to an EV fire is with trying to put it out.

The services have two main options, let the fire burn out or extinguish it.

The obvious choice seems to be to extinguish the fire, however many EV manufacturers actually advise for a controlled burn. This is where the fire services allow the vehicle to burn out while they focus on protecting the surrounding area.

 Once the fire has been successfully put out, the problem for the fire brigade is not over.

Electric vehicle fires are known to reignite hours, days or even weeks after the initial event, and they can do so many times.

Not only does this pose a safety issue, but it also poses a legal issue: recovery firms are increasingly concerned about dealing with electric vehicles.

Whilst the EV is being left to burn:

During an electric vehicle fire, over 100 organic chemicals are generated, including some incredibly toxic gases such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide – both of which are fatal to humans.

Petriix

Benny2020 said:

Electricity is going up by another 40% in October.

The Go off peak rate went up by 50% to 7.5p in January (just after I fixed for the year at 5p). As it's a fixed tariff they can put the price (for new customers) up at any time. At 7.5p per kWh and 3.5 miles per kWh, that's 2.14p per mile.

They might increase the new customer price in October. They increased the peak rate in April. My peak rate is fixed at 24p until January. 

[Deleted User]

Petriix said:

Benny2020 said:

Electricity is going up by another 40% in October.

The Go off peak rate went up by 50% to 7.5p in January (just after I fixed for the year at 5p). As it's a fixed tariff they can put the price (for new customers) up at any time. At 7.5p per kWh and 3.5 miles per kWh, that's 2.14p per mile.

They might increase the new customer price in October. They increased the peak rate in April. My peak rate is fixed at 24p until January. 

Worth noting that there is only a 4 hour window for charging at 7.5p. With a fast home charger at 7kW and losses around 15% that would get about 23.8 kWh in the battery or about 80 miles.

As soon as you want more than 80 miles or can't charge during the small 4 hour window you are looking at 34.35p kWh on Octopus (my region) which is 11.5p per mile inc charging losses.

GunJack

Petriix said

I don't understand what you mean about not being cost effective for the majority. EVs are extremely cost effective for anyone with off-street parking (which is the majority) and reliable smart meter signal (I have no data for this).

Because for many people the stupidly high cost of buying one, if not totally prohibitive, would be a major cost to recoup... 30k to buy a car would be about 35 years-worth of diesel to put into my sub-£1k cars... I might not live that much longer..and PCP/lease doesn't count as you never own the car so forking out 500 a month to not own the car isn't as cost effective as a one-off 500 to buy outright every 3 or 4 years. 

I probably could have put this better but too tired right now, but you get the drift

Keep_pedalling

[Deleted User] said:

Petriix said:

Benny2020 said:

Electricity is going up by another 40% in October.

The Go off peak rate went up by 50% to 7.5p in January (just after I fixed for the year at 5p). As it's a fixed tariff they can put the price (for new customers) up at any time. At 7.5p per kWh and 3.5 miles per kWh, that's 2.14p per mile.

They might increase the new customer price in October. They increased the peak rate in April. My peak rate is fixed at 24p until January. 

Worth noting that there is only a 4 hour window for charging at 7.5p. With a fast home charger at 7kW and losses around 15% that would get about 23.8 kWh in the battery or about 80 miles.

As soon as you want more than 80 miles or can't charge during the small 4 hour window you are looking at 34.35p kWh on Octopus (my region) which is 11.5p per mile inc charging losses.

For the vast majority of us charging in that 4 hour slot it’s just used to top up, hardly any journeys leave us charging from a completely empty battery and few require a full battery the following morning. My ID3 sits at between 20 and 80% 95% of time and in the summer a 4 hour charge will add around 100 of range. Even if you do need more than that 4 hour charge you average cost per mile is going to be a lot lower than 11.5p.

Martyn1981

Tesla has a section on vehicular fires in their recently released 2021 Impact Report (page 90).

Fire incidents are ~11x lower for Tesla vehicles than the average vehicle in the U.S.

When the media reports a story about a vehicle fire, it is usually reporting on an EV fire. This is likely a result of chasing clicks, rather than the prevalence of EV-related fires compared to ICE vehicle-related fires. The reality is, when compared to Tesla vehicles, ICE vehicles catch fire at a vastly higher rate. According to the latest available data, in 2020, there were almost 173,000 vehicle fires in the U.S. alone.

From 2012 to 2021, there has been approximately five Tesla vehicle fires for every billion miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation show that in the U.S. there are 53 vehicle fires for every billion miles travelled.

In order to provide an apt comparison to NFPA data, Tesla’s data set includes instances of vehicle fires caused by structure fires, arson and other reasons unrelated to the vehicle, which account for some of the Tesla vehicle fires over this time period.

Some of the batts in the Chevy Bolt and some Hyundai's had faults and needed to be replaced, these caused quite a number of fires, but seem to be resolved now (famous last words).

Herzlos

Burning EV's is certainly a concern, though I think the concerns are somewhat overblown but I don't know if we really have enough information yet as to the causes. How many are because of faults, accidents or vandalism?

If they become enough of a concern, then a solution will be found. I'm thinking the most obvious thing is to essentially drop a container over the top of them filled with foam and leaving them to burn out, or lifting them into a container and sealed off.

Petriix

[Deleted User] said:

Petriix said:

Benny2020 said:

Electricity is going up by another 40% in October.

The Go off peak rate went up by 50% to 7.5p in January (just after I fixed for the year at 5p). As it's a fixed tariff they can put the price (for new customers) up at any time. At 7.5p per kWh and 3.5 miles per kWh, that's 2.14p per mile.

They might increase the new customer price in October. They increased the peak rate in April. My peak rate is fixed at 24p until January. 

Worth noting that there is only a 4 hour window for charging at 7.5p. With a fast home charger at 7kW and losses around 15% that would get about 23.8 kWh in the battery or about 80 miles.

As soon as you want more than 80 miles or can't charge during the small 4 hour window you are looking at 34.35p kWh on Octopus (my region) which is 11.5p per mile inc charging losses.

In the 4 hour window I can add about 25kWh of usable energy to my battery; ~ 50% of my total capacity which is good for 100 miles on average. Driving 100 miles every working day equates to about 23,000 miles per year or roughly three times the UK average. Octopus also do a slightly more expensive (8.25p) 5 hour Go Faster option which would extend that by 25%. 125 miles per day or 30,000 miles per year is sufficient for (I'm guessing) > 95% of the population. Anyone driving further than that is likely doing so for business and will be able to claim all their driving expenses back - for 30,000 miles that's £9,500 at current HMRC rates.

GunJack said:

Petriix said

I don't understand what you mean about not being cost effective for the majority. EVs are extremely cost effective for anyone with off-street parking (which is the majority) and reliable smart meter signal (I have no data for this).

Because for many people the stupidly high cost of buying one, if not totally prohibitive, would be a major cost to recoup... 30k to buy a car would be about 35 years-worth of diesel to put into my sub-£1k cars... I might not live that much longer..and PCP/lease doesn't count as you never own the car so forking out 500 a month to not own the car isn't as cost effective as a one-off 500 to buy outright every 3 or 4 years. 

I probably could have put this better but too tired right now, but you get the drift

Buying a £500 car every 3-4 years is a bit of a false economy. You're looking at an average of > £500 per year in maintenance to keep it on the road, then ~ £1000 in fuel for every 5,000 miles. Then there's VED and potentially congestion charges, ULEZ etc. Around £2500 per year all in for average mileage. In comparison, running an EV would cost more like £500 for the same miles. That £2,000 saving per year can pay for a lot of interest and depreciation.

Herzlos

It's also ignoring the fact that £500 cars are almost impossible to find anymore unless you're in the trade, know someone who just wants rid of an old car, or are willing to take a gamble on something that's borderline scrap.

There are 33 cars on Autotrader under £500, and the vast bulk of them are spares or repair, MOT failures or need work.

Maybe things will come back to normal at some point, but the £500 car is a total myth now.

GunJack

Petriix said:

Buying a £500 car every 3-4 years is a bit of a false economy. You're looking at an average of > £500 per year in maintenance to keep it on the road, then ~ £1000 in fuel for every 5,000 miles. Then there's VED and potentially congestion charges, ULEZ etc. Around £2500 per year all in for average mileage. In comparison, running an EV would cost more like £500 for the same miles. That £2,000 saving per year can pay for a lot of interest and depreciation.

Jeez, your numbers are way out!! >£500 a year on servicing a bangernomics car? You really are blinded by the shiny LED headlights or something. My last car did 3.5 years, at a total all-in cost of around £900. Fuel £1k pa for just under 8k miles (oops, less than that, that's at last month's prices, more like £850), and I then got £156 back scrapping it at the end. £30 p.a. VED, avg. 60 mpg.