The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

yessuz

Ibrahim5 said:

I get the bit that most journeys are short. That's why I cycle everywhere. So electric cars will encourage people to pop to the shops etc more often because it's cheaper. Discourage car sharing. Discourage public transport. For longer journeys they are harder to use so will encourage flying. Maybe that's why France is banning short flights where the train can be used instead. I think my usage of cycling and long car journeys with my ICE is better environmentally than electric cars and flying. If only the train was cheaper.

Actually shorter the journey, higher the wh/mile

Why EVs are harder to use for a long journey!? Can you please elaborate?

Martyn1981

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

I don't get many of the replies on this thread. When EV'ers say that charging isn't as bad as some suggest, the replies seem to falsely say  - "EV'ers are claiming it's perfect".

When Petrix says access to cheap (or free) charging, the response claims he's stated free.

Why is help and information from EV'ers constantly being misrepresented?

Is the situation perfect, of course not, it's still early days, a whole new system needs to be developed and rolled out, but that's just an issue of time, as with anything fundamentally different to what went before.

Of course we should consider the negatives, but focusing on them entirely, whilst omitting the positives, makes no sense to me, and then misrepresenting any positive responses, or actual solutions and developments, makes no sense.

Ibrahim5

yessuz said:

Why EVs are harder to use for a long journey!? Can you please elaborate?

Asking daft questions like this at least helps you realize that you are not dealing with normal people but EV obsessives. Look up experiences of people driving across France.

Petriix

Ibrahim5 said:

I get the bit that most journeys are short. That's why I cycle everywhere. So electric cars will encourage people to pop to the shops etc more often because it's cheaper. Discourage car sharing. Discourage public transport. For longer journeys they are harder to use so will encourage flying. Maybe that's why France is banning short flights where the train can be used instead. I think my usage of cycling and long car journeys with my ICE is better environmentally than electric cars and flying. If only the train was cheaper.

Walking, cycling, train, probably bus are all preferable to private motoring. Train should definitely be cheaper - ideally free. But you're wrong about the car sharing thing. We regularly give other people lifts on medium length journeys. A common scenario is for two other people to drive to our house (which they would have been passing anyway) then pile into our EV for the bulk of the return journey, saving themselves the expense and the pollution for most of the miles.

Herzlos

Ibrahim5 said:

I get the bit that most journeys are short. That's why I cycle everywhere. So electric cars will encourage people to pop to the shops etc more often because it's cheaper. Discourage car sharing. Discourage public transport. For longer journeys they are harder to use so will encourage flying. Maybe that's why France is banning short flights where the train can be used instead. I think my usage of cycling and long car journeys with my ICE is better environmentally than electric cars and flying. If only the train was cheaper.

I doubt that having an electric car would have any real impact on people cycling, car sharing or using public transport, because most people are using them for convenience and not money saving. My 20mpg petrol saloon was cheaper than taking the train, but I took the train anyway.

Petriix

Ibrahim5 said:

yessuz said:

Why EVs are harder to use for a long journey!? Can you please elaborate?

Asking daft questions like this at least helps you realize that you are not dealing with normal people but EV obsessives. Look up experiences of people driving across France.

Comments like this make you realise that you're dealing with anti-EV obsessives... 

'Driving across France' is an exceptionally rare occurrence in the vast scheme of UK motorists' motoring. It's a completely irrational and irrelevant point. Before getting an EV I drove in France exactly once in my entire lifetime. 

Ironically enough I've read a couple of reports recently from EV drivers who've undertaken an elaborate trip to the South of France largely for the challenge of it. Overall they seemed happy with the outcome having saved loads of money (compared to the cost of fossil fuels) and didn't run into many issues. Yes, they travelled slower with longer stops, but they visited lots of places they would have otherwise driven past; remember that EVs charge while you're doing whatever else you're doing like eating, walking, sleeping etc.

Getting an EV makes it far more likely that I'll keep my holidays within the UK. The fact that I can travel so cheaply and with such a low impact makes the thought of flying (in contrast) seem totally unappealing. 

Herzlos

Ibrahim5 said:

Asking daft questions like this at least helps you realize that you are not dealing with normal people but EV obsessives. Look up experiences of people driving across France.

Here's what Europcar has to say about driving an EV in France:

https://www.europcar.com/editorial/en/travel-tips/electric-vehicles-in-france-everything-you-need-to-know-898/

It even says this, which again highlights that you don't seem to have any idea about what you are talking about:

"France is one of the most developed countries in Europe when it comes to electric vehicles, making it entirely possible to enjoy a driving holiday there if you own or have chosen to rent one. "

There are plenty of people who drive around France and Europe in an EV; there's better infrastructure than in the UK albeit it you do need to stop a bit more often than if you are driving with ICEV. But you're presumably on holiday (so can take it a bit more leisurely) or business (so you can catch up on paperwork).

Have you ever driving an electric car? Why do you keep bringing up the same disproven points to try and make it seem like they don't work?

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

My wife and I were out shopping this afternoon and Volvo had a stand in the shopping centre showing off their cars - they had two cars on display - an XC40 and a C40, both were all electric.

This type of car is slap bang in the territory for the "aspirational family" and I am not convinced that there are that many "aspirational families" that can finance in the range of £60k or £750 per month for a car acquisition.  Even the "well off" "aspirational family" with a "good" income level also has mortgage / rent, school trips, and all the other commitments to be met as well.  The savings in energy cost for the car become irrelevant if it is simply not possible to get into the car in the first place.

Volvos have always been expensive. You can't afford one, and I can't afford one. But does that make it a problem?

Lots of people (not me, admittedly) can easily afford to pay £750/month for a car, that's why they still sell.

As mentioned, if you're trying to make a point about the high up front cost of entry to the EV market, why are you looking at the super expensive luxury brands and not the entry level stuff on the market? The MG5 EV can be had for £25k which is going to be under £300/month. You can get electric variants of all sorts of mundane vehicles now: Corsa, Golf, Mini, etc.

Martyn1981

fred990 said:

Would it be fair to say the entire thread of ev fans are only interested in saving money and not the planet? 

Volvo tell us that it takes >90k miles on a non-renewable energy supply to be 'greener' than their ice car equivalent........shocking. 

I think that needs some context, in case the average UK driver (where only 40%, and falling, of leccy generation comes from FF's, and almost entirely gas now, which has half the CO2 emissions of coal, and a fraction of the air pollution) bases decisions on it.

Firstly though, let me state that the Volvo study is one of the fairest, it's just that their 'worst' scenario tends to get quoted, and often km's replaced with miles. Volvo themselves state that their CO2 emissions for a BEV in Europe will be overstated as they use the current emissions mix for leccy throughout the lifetime of the vehicle. Also BEV and battery production will get less energy intensive as mass production grows.

Well, that is scary news, isn’t it? A major manufacturer is admitting that it may take years of driving before its battery electric vehicles reach the break-even point when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions. The answer, of course, is that a person needs to read and understand the entire 50-page report before drawing any conclusions. That someone would be me. Here’s what I found.

First, the calculus used by Volvo says the results depend in large measure on the source of electricity its customers use to charge their vehicles. If they drive in Poland, where 90% of the electricity comes from burning coal, then yes, it will take 100,000 kilometers or more to reach parity with a conventional gasoline-powered car. On the other hand, if the electricity comes from renewable sources such as wind or solar, the crossover point is closer to 50,000 kilometers. The middle scenario, based on the current EU energy mix, is 77,000 kilometers.

Unpacking The “Electric Cars Aren’t As Green As You Think” Claims

“Scenarios for the European market indicate that the carbon intensity of electricity production may further decrease there. This would mean that there will likely be a continuous reduction of the BEVs carbon footprints even if no active choice of using renewable energy in the use phase is made, although an active choice for renewable electricity gives a much larger positive difference for the climate.”

In case anyone is interested. Roughly 50% of FF generation on the grid has now been displaced by RE (renewable energy). With an annual displacement so far of about 3.5%, then theoretically, most of the remaining FF emissions could be displaced this decade.

Pluses - RE is getting cheaper, and deployments are rising in capacity, especially off-shore wind.
Minuses - Most coal has gone, so displacing FF gas will bring smaller gains, plus the UK nuclear fleet* pretty much ages out this decade, so more RE will have beneficial gains, but smaller reductions in grid CO2 intensity than seen in the last decade.

* Currently about 18% of UK leccy supply. HPC (Hinkley Point C) may start generation before the end of the decade supplying about 7% of our current demand, but at around 2.2x the cost of new RE, and around 20x the subsidy cost.

yessuz

Ibrahim5 said:

yessuz said:

Why EVs are harder to use for a long journey!? Can you please elaborate?

Asking daft questions like this at least helps you realize that you are not dealing with normal people but EV obsessives. Look up experiences of people driving across France.

again - anecdotal evidences are not the constants and 100% accurate

check https://abetterrouteplanner.com/ before talking about journeys, please