The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.

Grumpy_chap

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

ElefantEd

You can get a Dacia Spring in France for as little as 12500 Euros.

https://insideevs.com/features/549565/europe-cheapest-ev-dacia-spring/

Obviously it's a small city car with a modest 140 mile range and very few extra features, but it does knock the idea on the head that EVs are always going to be more expensive than ICE equivalents.

Petriix

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

The 'or free' was in brackets. The majority (60%?) have access to off-street parking which brings them 7.5p per kWh on Octopus Go. Some who don't have off-street parking will have access to other cheap or free charging - possibly at work or supermarkets etc. That means it's a (significan't) unlucky minority who can't benefit from the low EV running costs which make it an obvious choice.

yessuz

Grumpy_chap said:

There are two items being conflated here. 

Let's deal with the company car scenario first:

Obviously, for the company car user, an EV is a no-brainer from the BIK point of view.  We agree.

Your scenario of taking the car allowance rather than a car and also receiving 45 pence per mile is unusual.  Many people (I think the vast majority) in that case of taking the cash allowance are only paid the AMAP fuel rate for business mileage - it is around 12 pence per mile but 4 pence per mile for EV.  If the employer pays full car allowance plus full 45 pence per mile, the employer has effectively paid twice.  Most employers that I have encountered would not do that.

Many employers simply won't want to see the monthly lease cost increase by £150 per vehicle to switch to EV's - some employers pay fuel cards as well so get the gain of fuel (energy) cost saving but those employers that do not pay fuel will not see the benefit so it would be £150 extra per month to the employer for the employee to save petrol (energy) costs. 

As for increasing lease costs, when I last had a company car, the lease was based upon an agreed rate for the appropriate grade of BMW - so I could have a BMW 1 Series ED which apparently had a monthly value of £310 or I could go out and get any car on lease for £310.  I was allowed to pay £10 per month extra.  I found an E-Class deal at £322 and happy to pay the £12 per month extra.  Outside the rules, just not allowed.  Many companies are similarly rigid on this.

Now, the private buyer:

You state the extra finance is available and anyone in a decent situation can get the money.  How does this work?

I have been using as the target market for a car such as the XC40 the "aspirational family" and when I first introduced them to the thread I considered them as "well off" with a "good" income level, but also having mortgage / rent, school trips, other financial commitments all to be met.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the "well off" aspirational family has a "good" income level of £60k (however that is split between two parents).  

"Just" another £10k of finance (or £150 of repayments) is a big amount.  I am truly interested as to how "anyone in a decent situation" can easily raise these additional funds and dismiss the concern.  It is borrowing another 25% in the Volvo example.  I am quite sure that I could not just have another £10k for the asking and I think that applies to most people I know or know of - so who are the mystery group you refer to that will be simply thrown another £10k borrowing for a more expensive new car purchase?

I can accept that there will be many cases where the extra capital is off-set by reduced running costs so the overall cost of ownership is lower.  I do, however, want to understand how the target new car buyer (personified by the "aspirational family") actually gets into the EV to start with rather than the ICE.  If they cannot get the EV, then the lower cost of life-cycle ownership is never possible to realise.

Even more so, if the new car buyer can't get into an EV because they don't just have the extra £10k (even if it is finance) to throw into the purchase of the new car, then there are never the numbers of EV cars becoming available as used cars and those that are not able to buy new never get to convert to EV.


Finally, but it's really an aside, I disagree on your picking the spec as less good 18" wheels / 19" wheels - who cares?  In fact, I'd prefer the smaller wheel for the better ride comfort and better energy efficiency.

WELL, ok, let's dissect that

Private car as company car:
I took the cash allowance and not the company car, because as in your mentioned case, there is X amount for the car lease set. This particular amount was not enough. Salary sacrifice scheme not available. so here you go - I took cash and with the cash + personal car mileage car is literally free. I would take company car, obviously if I could. 45p per mile is for each and every PRIVATE car usage for business purpose.  https://www.gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-business-travel-mileage/rules-for-tax if employer will not pay enough, then you will claim money back via HMRC as you are underpaid.

So now imagine - my office is  50 miles away. back and forth is 100 miles.  that distance would be covered with ~30 kwh (figure not accurate and probably too high). with 7.5p per kwh of electricity price, that will be 0.075 8 30 = 2.25 GBP, if I disregard any other "expense, like services, insurance, etc.)
My workplace, per my contract is my home. So every time I travel to office - it's business expense. Hence I got paid 90 gbp. My gross income, per trip to office, is 87.75 gbp. so 4 trips to office per month + cash allowance  = monthly car payment. any other trip - it's pure profit. again, EV's have very little maintenance costs and retain value extremely well.

Car I took in not a lease, not PCP - it's a loan from car manufacturer at very good rate (you can take other finance means, obviously). so in short, I take the commitment to pay another "mortgage" size payment on the car, but in this regard, I have no mileage and other limitations (like lease eor PCP has) and at the end of the term I will have a fully paid asset 9or I can trade it in for newer/nicer, etc).

Of course, that is absolutely true, that if you have company car, then you got paid, if not mistaken, 5p per mile for business miles.. which is still well below the cost if charged at home, and obviously, not enough if charge somewhere in the public.


Now, the private buyer:

You state the extra finance is available and anyone in a decent situation can get the money.  How does this work?

Yes - if your credit history is not !!!!!! and you earn enough - there is not problem to get lease, pcp or other finance means. 

I have been using as the target market for a car such as the XC40 the "aspirational family" and when I first introduced them to the thread I considered them as "well off" with a "good" income level, but also having mortgage / rent, school trips, other financial commitments all to be met.

For the sake of discussion, let's say that the "well off" aspirational family has a "good" income level of £60k (however that is split between two parents).  

"Just" another £10k of finance (or £150 of repayments) is a big amount.  I am truly interested as to how "anyone in a decent situation" can easily raise these additional funds and dismiss the concern.  It is borrowing another 25% in the Volvo example.  I am quite sure that I could not just have another £10k for the asking and I think that applies to most people I know or know of - so who are the mystery group you refer to that will be simply thrown another £10k borrowing for a more expensive new car purchase?

Yes... and? If both parents together earn 60k, then maybe they cannot afford the new car, then? Or tey can afford something much cheaper? like Hyunday Kona electric, which starts at 28.900 for electric and it will be 6k less than Volvo? I do not know what would be their mortgage payments, what is this and that. I mean, school trips - how much do you expect this cost a year for one child? What other commitments? I for example cannot understand people, who have freeview - and who pay for virgin or sky. well, here you have few pounds here and there. There are things which I really want but cannot afford, so I do not buy them.

But yet again, if you want to stick to Volvos only, additional £150 commitment in monthly payments would be offset by very cheap monthly expenditure on fuel. One full tank is ~70 gbp these days easily. 2 tanks a month is probably on the very conservative end for 2 working adults. if you make 1000 miles a month, that would be ~ 4 full 80 kwh batteries (or something like that) which will cost you 320 x 0.075 = 24 GBP.  Here's your maths even for private use.

I can accept that there will be many cases where the extra capital is off-set by reduced running costs so the overall cost of ownership is lower.  I do, however, want to understand how the target new car buyer (personified by the "aspirational family") actually gets into the EV to start with rather than the ICE.  If they cannot get the EV, then the lower cost of life-cycle ownership is never possible to realise.

well, yeah. If you are not buying an EV - how can you own one?! If you cannot afford Volvo, you buy what you can afford. maybe your young aspiring family, instead of Volvo, would like Tesla Model X more. it does not change the fact, that if you cannot afford something - you should not buy it.

Even more so, if the new car buyer can't get into an EV because they don't just have the extra £10k (even if it is finance) to throw into the purchase of the new car, then there are never the numbers of EV cars becoming available as used cars and those that are not able to buy new never get to convert to EV.

well, then you buy what you can afford, like Hyundai Kone Electric starting from 28k or Kia e-Niro starting at 35k, or Skoda Enyaq starting at 40,970?   If I cannot afford additional 500 gbp a month of mortgage payments  for better house, I do not buy it. I just cannot understand where's the problem?  there are other EV manufacturers which production maybe more affordable?!

Finally, but it's really an aside, I disagree on your picking the spec as less good 18" wheels / 19" wheels - who cares?  In fact, I'd prefer the smaller wheel for the better ride comfort and better energy efficiency.

after all, if you chose the cheapest xc40 as new, it will have the lowest value when you resell or trade in. and even that, the non hybrid, cheapest one, will be more or less most expensive to run. then it comes back to maths.

yessuz

Petriix said:

 Toyota are allowed to perpetuate their perpetual motion myth with their 'self charging hybrids' - spoiler: they actually charge by burning fossil fuels. 

well, self charging hybrid is the same hybrid which was introduced with 1st gen prius... just nice marketing message

yessuz

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

no. Majority of people have drives or access to an off-street parking as Petriix said.. charging while is not free, is very cheap. 
I yet to see a car (ICE) which can do 300 miles for less than 7 gbp.

shinytop

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

no. Majority of people have drives or access to an off-street parking as Petriix said.. charging while is not free, is very cheap. 
I yet to see a car (ICE) which can do 300 miles for less than 7 gbp.

I have yet to see a car (BEV) that can do 300 miles for less than 40,000 gbp

grumiofoundation

shinytop said:

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

no. Majority of people have drives or access to an off-street parking as Petriix said.. charging while is not free, is very cheap. 
I yet to see a car (ICE) which can do 300 miles for less than 7 gbp.

I have yet to see a car (BEV) that can do 300 miles for less than 40,000 gbp

Even ignoring the glib nature of your comment you clearly haven’t actually bothered to look at the cost of electric vehicles. 

yessuz

shinytop said:

yessuz said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Petriix said:

My point still stands. If you have access to cheap (or free) charging, particularly at home or work, or if you can run it through a business, get an EV as soon as possible. If you don't fall into this group then you're in the unlucky minority.

Is that a mis-type?  Did you mean "unlucky majority"?

The majority do not have free charging at home or at work.  There were figures up-thread about how many (few) have home solar.
The majority cannot run their personal car through a business.

Your conclusion for those that do have access to free charging and / or can run an EV through their business is correct.

no. Majority of people have drives or access to an off-street parking as Petriix said.. charging while is not free, is very cheap. 
I yet to see a car (ICE) which can do 300 miles for less than 7 gbp.

I have yet to see a car (BEV) that can do 300 miles for less than 40,000 gbp

And? It does not change the fact that 100 miles in EV cost ~2 gbp

Ibrahim5

I get the bit that most journeys are short. That's why I cycle everywhere. So electric cars will encourage people to pop to the shops etc more often because it's cheaper. Discourage car sharing. Discourage public transport. For longer journeys they are harder to use so will encourage flying. Maybe that's why France is banning short flights where the train can be used instead. I think my usage of cycling and long car journeys with my ICE is better environmentally than electric cars and flying. If only the train was cheaper.