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The big fat Electric Vehicle bashing thread.
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You don't have to stop to have a pee.0
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Petriix said:People keep going on about the purchase price as if it's an absolute limiting factor. But anyone with access to sufficient credit isn't limited in that way. If you're only paying 2% interest on that £20k, it's just £33 per month. if you're saving £100 on fuel then you can factor in the cost of the interest. For me, running a £23k EV has been cheaper than running a £200 banger.
Can you explain more how a £23k car is cheaper to run than a £200 car for the rest of us?
How much is a headlight bulb on your 23k ev?"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson2 -
Does this new 23k car increase in value over the short term?
Of course a ev is cheaper to run than a ice but you surely aren't ignoring the initial capital cost or maintenance even if you are a billionaire able to access cheap credit
Do you have to pay a deposit on this 23k car?"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson0 -
Deleted_User said:
I did the 1,000 mile road trip over a few days with full size 3rd row seats in a Ford Galaxy but the 6/7 seats were occupied by kids anyway so even fold ups would have been good enough. The destination was 350 miles and included a ferry to Ireland but exploring during the holiday totted us up to the 1,000 miles.
I did it in a £12k 2nd hand car vs £30k+ for a Vivaro Life EV. I wouldn't have been able to afford to holiday if I'd bought a Vivaro, not that they were available when I did the trip.
I now have a Ford S-Max with the fold out seats for 3rd row because I only do a 6/7 passenger journey a few times a month, but each one saves me a small fortune by not having to get a taxi / hire car etc that easily offsets EV cost.
Anyway, that 7 seat thing is a bit niche as somebody pointed out earlier, just like the people who have solar panels, 5p unit elec, home battery and space to charge a car at home.
My main point was that people with a reasonable budget - up to £17k have a choice of just 442 EV's out of a quarter of a million cars on Autotrader.
Buy a £10k car like I did instead of a £25k MG5 / Leaf / Zoe etc and it will work out cheaper over 10 years depending on annual mileage. And I got just as many high spec driver convenience and safety features, if not more than the £25k EV's are offering.
There is a valid discussion around the whole life costs being lower with an EV. That could potentially close quite a large gap in purchase price. That all becomes moot if the purchaser simply cannot finance the higher capital outlay to start with.
I'm not aware that an individual can approach a lender and have an additional sum approved for car purchase based upon the future cost savings of lower running costs of the EV. If finance is capped at £10k, then that's the budget.
The cost-to-entry factor will reduce because more used EV's will come into the market plus the price of new EV's will fall, as does any new technology following the maturity curve.
However, in comparing cost to acquire and / or whole life costs between ICE and EV, I do think that the comparison should be on a like-for-like basis.
Comparing a £10k or £12k used car against a £25k or £30k brand new car is not doing the discussion a good justice.
Now, comparing similar cars between EV and ICE even within only brand new cars is also difficult:- Do you compare an ICE Corsa (from £17k) against an EV Corsa (from £27k)?
- Do you compare an EV Corsa (from £27k) against an ICE BMW-1 Series (from £27k)?
- Do you compare an EV Corsa (from £27k) against an ICE Mondeo (from £27k)?
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Thrugelmir said:yessuz said:Thrugelmir said:yessuz said:iwb100 said:The thing is it’s cost of buying that’s prohibitive. People have cars that they need. I am getting a 7 seater because I need it. What choice would I have electric for sensible money?I think the other major barrier is the network. Electric dealers I’ve spoken to who have had EVs a while even say that it’s getting worse with respect to charging as more EVs are sold and the stats show it’s becoming drastically worse. The sorts of trips families have to do in the holidays on long motorways journeys with kids need a charging network that can be analogous or as close as possible to filling up at the service station. Or a range that makes charging unnecessary. So you need affordable EVs that have real world range using the heater or air con and music etc of 400 miles. Or thereabouts. Or you need a car that charges in 5-10 minutes and enough chargers at service stations etc to satiate any demand. Imagine queuing for a charger that takes say half an hour and you have two cars in front of you. Nobody on earth will tolerate that.That is not true. There's loads of chargers being built. And in 99% of the time you will charge your car at home (if you have access to that)To make EVs work we needed a huge infrastructure program that started years ago to secure land and reconfigure existing operations to allow massive increase in charging points. To really work you need every parking space at every service station to be a charger. And they all need to work.No, that is not true again. check the zapmap
That’s the challenge. Yet as said above nobody is doing a thing about it.
What the UK requires is another Alec Issigonis.
You should remember and even factor in, that 99% of your (and any other person's) charges will be done at home (or at the destination).
65% of households have, or have the potential for, off street parking - this increases to 68% for England outside of London (which to be honest doesn't really need the same level of chargers as public transport is used much more). Another couple of surveys I looked at last week quoted 74-75% having off street parking, but I'll use the lower figure here for arguments sake.
The average car is driven just one hour out of every 24. So, in reality, the majority of households could charge at home, and have ample amount of parked time at home/work to charge. The proportion of time the average car/van spends parked at home has increased over the years to 73% in 2019, and probably increased since then as well due to WFH.
In reality, the issue of public charging is a non issue for the majority of people. The vast majority of charging is done at home/work, and the average driver will only need occasional use of public chargers (not including regular issue of free chargers at supermarkets etc, which is just a no brainer!).
Rac survey https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/rac-forecasts-unprecedented-summer-on-the-uks-roads-with-16m-staycations/ notes that in 2021 (with the increase in staycations due to Covid) 57% of drivers travel more than 150 miles from home for UK holidays, but only 17% travel more than 300 miles. Again, probably only a minority that would need to charge en route if there was a charger at your destination.
Yes, there are challenges for that minority who don't have off road parking - and yes, that minority who want to travel really long distances without stopping can't at the moment. But the reality is that, apart from the price tag of 200+ mile range EVs, there is nothing stopping the majority of households moving easily across to EVs. Price is high because it's a new technology and they are new cars. It will take time for second hand EVs (not 40 mile range Leafs, but with proper range) to trickle through - it's a gradual process, it's not supposed to happen overnight. The easy low hanging fruit is always taken first, the more difficult (like street parking outside terraced houses) was always going to be looked at later.3 -
For higher mileage drivers, who don't buy the car outright (cash or loan) but choose the PCP method, then it's entirely possible for the monthly outgoings to be the same or similar with a BEV v's ICE. Yes they pay more for the lease, but save on the running costs.
It's quite a few years ago now, but I recall a sofa chat on BBC morning news with an early buyer of a Tesla Model 3. The Tesla was about £40k, v's his previous car, which I think was about £25k (Mondeo), but their monthly outgoings had gone down.
Sadly, at the moment, prices and costs for almost everything are now very difficult to compare, but 'normal' life will return eventually, and for cost comparisons we need to remember that BEV costs will keep falling as battery costs fall, and mass production starts to kick in (BEV production, other than Tesla, is still pretty low per model). At the same time, falling sales of ICEV's will knock profits, and potentially prices, since they will see the opposite result with diseconomies of scale, and of course, losing say 20% of your sales, could wipe out all of the profits.Mart. Cardiff. 8.72 kWp PV systems (2.12 SSW 4.6 ESE & 2.0 WNW). 20kWh battery storage. Two A2A units for cleaner heating. Two BEV's for cleaner driving.
For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.0 -
dipsomaniac said:Petriix said:People keep going on about the purchase price as if it's an absolute limiting factor. But anyone with access to sufficient credit isn't limited in that way. If you're only paying 2% interest on that £20k, it's just £33 per month. if you're saving £100 on fuel then you can factor in the cost of the interest. For me, running a £23k EV has been cheaper than running a £200 banger.
Can you explain more how a £23k car is cheaper to run than a £200 car for the rest of us?
How much is a headlight bulb on your 23k ev?I know a few people where the payments on their brand new EV are more than they save in fuel. That £200 car will (unless you are very lucky) need more maintenance than a new car would, even if that maintenance is cheaper. The £200 car will also need to eventually be replaced by a newer car.Say you've got a 100 mile round trip commute (large but not impossible) and save 15p/mile going ICE to EV, you're then saving £300/month in fuel alone. If you also commute into London you're saving another £15/day (£300/month). There are some places offer free parking for EV's, and so on.So you could keep the ICE car at home and have £600/month towards a new EV and still be better off.
If you only commute a 10 mile round trip, then it doesn't make any sense though. IIRC the average commute is under 15 miles so I dare say most people wouldn't see a benefit.Modern headlights are often LED so don't fail as often as older filaments. I can't remember the last time I had to change a bulb or had anyone mention it. It'd no doubt be at least an hours labour to change, and most people won't change them themselves anyway.2 -
ComicGeek said:
65% of households have, or have the potential for, off street parking
Does "potential for" simply look at physical space and access to highway?
Does "potential for" take into account political decisions?
In the area where I live the Council has adopted a very anti-car position which makes applications for vehicle cross-overs very difficult. This is done on purpose to force to over-crowding on the street for parked cars so that a permit system can then increase charges for having a car plus restrict the number of cars per property.0 -
All of the materials in Batteries are increasing in price substantially so how will battery prices fall?
I am invested heavily in Lithium, Nickel and Copper.
A few weeks ago the world actually ran out of stocks of Nickel and trading was halted after a massive spike in price, even now there is barely any buffer between mines and supply.1
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