Stressful Completion - Seller Refused to Move Out!

TripleH

LunaCatty said:

We have the keys    A few issues to go with it, which we need to decide how to handle - deliberate damages and removal of items that were listed as included in the sale - but thankfully we can now start to clean and get ready to move in. Phew! Thank you so much everyone. 

Raise this with your solicitor with the suggested threat of further action to put you back into the position you should have been in.

I'm not saying you have to take it further, but a warning shot over their boughs that they have done xyz wrong and could be liable for £a in charges. Even if it is you saying 'we could legally claim £a plus costs from you but we won't as a favour'.

Woolsery

Well done OP. I hope you'll enjoy living in your new home.The calm, tolerant way you handled things won't have been missed by neighbours and by now half the village will know!

I think there have been threads where sellers have returned on various pretexts, sometimes muliple times, so it's now  particularly good there has been no verbal to and fro between you and the recalcitrant vendors.

If they turn up tomorrow, "My solicitor says I must not speak with you or let you in" covers it.....for ever!

lookstraightahead

Wowzers what a rollercoaster. Well done op! 

Ath_Wat

Emmia said:

Ath_Wat said:

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

Vacant possession means... 

'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer.

In England and Wales a property can be sold either with or without vacant possession.

If the property is sold without vacant possession, this usually means there will be tenants in situ. Any tenancy agreement relating to the property must be included in the contract because when you’re buying a property you need to know who, if anyone, is living in it and on what terms.'

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2017/what-is-vacant-possession/

Other definition providers are available, but this one seemed to be the most comprehensive... 

OK, that doesn't really answer my question at all though; I had already googled it.  That implies that if I leave an old wardrobe in the back bedroom the new owner can't stop me re-entering the house, as completion has not occurred, and that seems absurd.

TheJP

Ath_Wat said:

Emmia said:

Ath_Wat said:

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

Vacant possession means... 

'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer.

In England and Wales a property can be sold either with or without vacant possession.

If the property is sold without vacant possession, this usually means there will be tenants in situ. Any tenancy agreement relating to the property must be included in the contract because when you’re buying a property you need to know who, if anyone, is living in it and on what terms.'

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2017/what-is-vacant-possession/

Other definition providers are available, but this one seemed to be the most comprehensive... 

OK, that doesn't really answer my question at all though; I had already googled it.  That implies that if I leave an old wardrobe in the back bedroom the new owner can't stop me re-entering the house, as completion has not occurred, and that seems absurd.

They can stop you entering as that would be trespassing, as you have completed by handing over keys you could either ask the buyer for permission to get the wardrobe. You couldn't at this point just legally walk in.

youth_leader

Wishing you luck in your new home.

Lockdown has bought out the worst in some people, I am sorry you've got damages/missing items. 

user1977

Ath_Wat said:

Emmia said:

Ath_Wat said:

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

Vacant possession means... 

'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer.

In England and Wales a property can be sold either with or without vacant possession.

If the property is sold without vacant possession, this usually means there will be tenants in situ. Any tenancy agreement relating to the property must be included in the contract because when you’re buying a property you need to know who, if anyone, is living in it and on what terms.'

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2017/what-is-vacant-possession/

Other definition providers are available, but this one seemed to be the most comprehensive... 

OK, that doesn't really answer my question at all though; I had already googled it.  That implies that if I leave an old wardrobe in the back bedroom the new owner can't stop me re-entering the house, as completion has not occurred

If the new owner is in the property then completion has occurred. You might (arguably) be in breach of contract though.

FreedomBringsPeace

Takes photos of what was missing, any damage before you clean it and set it straight, and please change the locks including any out buildings. You conducted yourself well! 

Ath_Wat

user1977 said:

Ath_Wat said:

Emmia said:

Ath_Wat said:

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

Vacant possession means... 

'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer.

In England and Wales a property can be sold either with or without vacant possession.

If the property is sold without vacant possession, this usually means there will be tenants in situ. Any tenancy agreement relating to the property must be included in the contract because when you’re buying a property you need to know who, if anyone, is living in it and on what terms.'

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2017/what-is-vacant-possession/

Other definition providers are available, but this one seemed to be the most comprehensive... 

OK, that doesn't really answer my question at all though; I had already googled it.  That implies that if I leave an old wardrobe in the back bedroom the new owner can't stop me re-entering the house, as completion has not occurred

If the new owner is in the property then completion has occurred. You might (arguably) be in breach of contract though.

That contradicts "'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer."

Ath_Wat

TheJP said:

Ath_Wat said:

Emmia said:

Ath_Wat said:

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

Vacant possession means... 

'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer.

In England and Wales a property can be sold either with or without vacant possession.

If the property is sold without vacant possession, this usually means there will be tenants in situ. Any tenancy agreement relating to the property must be included in the contract because when you’re buying a property you need to know who, if anyone, is living in it and on what terms.'

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2017/what-is-vacant-possession/

Other definition providers are available, but this one seemed to be the most comprehensive... 

OK, that doesn't really answer my question at all though; I had already googled it.  That implies that if I leave an old wardrobe in the back bedroom the new owner can't stop me re-entering the house, as completion has not occurred, and that seems absurd.

They can stop you entering as that would be trespassing, as you have completed by handing over keys you could either ask the buyer for permission to get the wardrobe. You couldn't at this point just legally walk in.

Does "handing over keys" carry some legal weight, then?  I always believed keys were irrelevant.

Also, the lines quoted above suggest that vacant possession is not given (and therefore completion is not achieved) until all belongings have been removed.

I am not getting any clarity on the actual point of completion here.