Stressful Completion - Seller Refused to Move Out!

Flugelhorn

michelle09 said:

I feel for you OP! We had this twice although neither time as bad as yours. First time the house was empty when we got there so just picked the lock and waited. The vendor insisted it was fine as 'we weren't moving in until next week.' Second time I am still not sure why they sat in an empty kitchen for 3 hours shouting at our removal guys. 

Both times we were and just made it abundantly clear we would not be leaving and the second they left the locks would be changed. 

Remember that if they haven't updated their address then sending post back to sender is an absolutely valid course of action. And that you can really upset previous vendors by sending back parcels and so they get charged the return postage to their accounts. 

Goodness me  - were the vendors selling up reluctantly?

I had vendors not move out until about 3pm, by which time they had refused deliveries I had arranged (fridge & freezer) as they "didn't know who they were for"

Tiglet2

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

Section62

Ath_Wat said:

Section62 said:

I didn't say you had suggested they kick the door down.

The hypothetical situations you put forward don't reflect the OP's situation, and debating them won't help the OP.

Hopefully their problem is now sorted - and with the least fuss, stress and expense all round.

Hopefully their problem is sorted, but I would be interested to know at what point completion is deemed to occur or not to occur.  You seemed very sure of your ground so I am asking.  If you don't know, that's fine.

I don't remember commenting on the completion point.  I'd generally refrain from doing so without having more information about the circumstances. And if it was important to the OP then my advice to them would be that the best person to ask would be their solicitor who has a full overview of the situation, and is being paid to give professional advice on this matter.

What I am sure of is that this was a civil matter, not one for police involvement (in the circumstances), and that kicking the door in would have resulted in a worse outcome for all.

Tiglet2

Agree with Section62.  This is a civil matter.

LunaCatty

We have the keys    A few issues to go with it, which we need to decide how to handle - deliberate damages and removal of items that were listed as included in the sale - but thankfully we can now start to clean and get ready to move in. Phew! Thank you so much everyone. 

Ath_Wat

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

steve866

LunaCatty said:

We have the keys    A few issues to go with it, which we need to decide how to handle - deliberate damages and removal of items that were listed as included in the sale - but thankfully we can now start to clean and get ready to move in. Phew! Thank you so much everyone. 

Glad you are in! Deliberate damages, that doesn't sound good?

london21

LunaCatty said:

We have the keys    A few issues to go with it, which we need to decide how to handle - deliberate damages and removal of items that were listed as included in the sale - but thankfully we can now start to clean and get ready to move in. Phew! Thank you so much everyone. 

Congratulations! 

Strange sellers they don't seem OK. 

Maybe emotionally attached, but they have had time to prepare. 

MysteryMe

Glad you are finally in OP, even more glad you followed the advice of the solicitor. Some times you just have to be calm, collected and be pragmatic. There is no question at all that the vendors are in the wrong here but no point taking actions likely to result in more stress and aggro. 

Emmia

Ath_Wat said:

Tiglet2 said:

From a legal perspective, under standard conditions of sale, the latest time a seller should vacate a property is 2pm. This time can be changed in the contract and will be agreed between the solicitors before contracts are exchanged. Obviously, it is difficult sometimes to judge how quickly the removals van can load up, or the seller is overwhelmed by the amount of work needed to pack, so there should be some leeway given if vacant possession is delayed by an hour or so.  However, in this situation, vacant possession did not take place at any time on completion day which meant that the seller was in breach of this.  The buyer could/should have notified their solicitor.  At this point, OP's solicitor should have called and emailed the seller’s solicitor.

Technically, OP would have been in a position to charge interest as the seller was in breach of contract by not vacating in the specified time.  Interest is usually charged at 4% above base so, with today’s base rate of 0.75%, the interest would be calculated as 4.75% of the total purchase price on a pro-rata daily basis. OP could potentially have demanded damages as well, such as extra removal costs, hotel charges and so on, if applicable, though costs should be reasonable and not taking the p.

In reality, it can be difficult to actually receive the interest and damages as the seller needs to agree to the payment. Some sellers will be absolutely upstanding about it and allow their solicitor to deduct interest from their completion funds, if their solicitor hasn’t yet released them to the seller. Other sellers, however, may refuse to do this, and the buyer would need to pursue the amount through the courts. This is something most buyers don’t do as the court costs would probably exceed the amount being claimed.

Hopefully OP is in the middle of moving in now and this will all be a distant memory.

I'd be interested in the following, as may some others who might see this thread in future, if you have the answers.

What exactly does vacant possession consist of?  If they are not in the house but their possessions/some of their possessions are, is that vacant possession?

If vacant possession is not granted at 2pm (or the arranged time) but the money has been paid, does the buyer have the right to enter the premises by whatever means they deem fit?

Vacant possession means... 

'When buying or selling a property with ‘vacant possession’ the property needs to be empty on the day of completion. This means the sellers or tenants have moved out and removed all of their belongings, only leaving behind items that have been agreed with the buyer.

In England and Wales a property can be sold either with or without vacant possession.

If the property is sold without vacant possession, this usually means there will be tenants in situ. Any tenancy agreement relating to the property must be included in the contract because when you’re buying a property you need to know who, if anyone, is living in it and on what terms.'

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2017/what-is-vacant-possession/

Other definition providers are available, but this one seemed to be the most comprehensive...