Updated 08/03 - I won my case!

RoseNarene

Edited 14.02:
I've had the witness statement from Highview. It includes an awful lot of stuff that I don't understand, and includes:
- pictures of the signage at the car park
- all the copies of the letters they sent me
And they have gone through each of the points in the first statement I wrote and addressed each of them, saying things like...
- they don't accept that they have caused any distress
- it's all my fault for ignoring the letters
- it wouldn't have gone this far (or caused me distress) if I hadn't ignored the letters
- the amount they are claiming isn't disproportionate
- the name change thing is my fault because it was my responsibility to keep my logbook up to date
- they reference the new Code of Practice and say that it is not law or current legislation
- that the person who wrote the letter (a lawyer) might not be present and an advocate might go to the hearing in her place, and they request I pay for that person

The only thing I've got in my defence really is...
- 2.5 hours isn't long enough
- I can prove I spent money on all or some of the occasions I parked
- one time I was there for over 4 hours, and I know for a fact that I would not have stayed that long; I would say the ANPR cameras messed up that day, perhaps I returned later? I honestly cannot remember, but I know I would NEVER stay that long as I have always known that car park has a time limit
- there's often loads of traffic getting out of that car park (as there's only one way in/out) and I have local newspaper articles referencing this issue
- I may have had my young children with me, one of whom had poor control over her bladder when she was younger (and the other was a baby) so this could easily have meant I overstayed by mistake
- I didn't get all the letters. One reason they were sent to the wrong address is because I was going through a messy divorce with domestic abuse (no police evidence, though) and my ex kept my logbook from me and didn't send me any letters when I was forced to move back to my parents, so I didn't get the logbook address changed 

I mean, this isn't in my defence but I know I ignored some letters, too. I thought that was what you were meant to do at the time.

I have read the template witness statements so not asking anyone to write anything for me!! Just any other advice on what to write really based on my specific circumstances.

Thanks!




Edited 03.10: 
Judgement against me was set aside - being sent to my local court. Now just gotta wait and see what happens...


Edited 23.08:
I have received judgement against me for 1 of the claims (the one that was made in my old married name) based on a failure to complete the claim form.

However, I did complete the claim form. I sent it back in May. I had an email form the court after that to say that I hadn't sent it, so I sent it again. Both times I had the automated reply from the court.

I tried to ring them but no one picks up. What do I do? Do I have to pay the £275 and fill in the form to have it set aside? Will I get that money back?



First Post (14.05.2022):

Hi everyone

I have received a Claim Form for overstaying in a Highview Parking car park waaaaay back in 2018. 

I've been looking at the newbie thread and as a result, have made the data request and sent an email to DCBL asking for the case to be put on hold for 30 days. I have also responded to the claim and followed the advice on how to fill that in (I missed the bit where I was meant to wait until the latest possible day, though... my issue date was 10/03 and I responded on 12/03).

I know that I was wrong to follow the old advice about ignoring letters, which is what's gotten me to this point. I will remember in future!

My question really is about the defence. I have read the newbie thread and I understand I should copy/paste the defence statement and send it off before my time runs up on the 11th April, I think it is? But I'm not sure what I'm meant to write in the first bit, where I am meant to defend why I shouldn't pay for overstaying, because it was so long ago that I cannot remember.

I've parked in the car park loads of times and I know the time limit (as I have had lots of these letters in the past for many different overstays, and ignored them all, though I am only getting chased for one) but sometimes it isn't possible to get in and out before the limit runs out for several reasons, though I cannot say which one of these applied to me on this occasion:
- firstly, because there's a lot of shops on that retail park, and with checkout queues and browsing etc, I might have simply taken too long
- secondly, because I have young children (they were 1 and 5 at the time), and as you guys will know, if you're on your way out of a car park but someone needs the loo or a nappy change, you have to do it! And there's not exactly an abundance of toilets you can get to quickly on that particular retail park
- thirdly, because the retail park is a bottleneck, it can be hard to get in and out promptly because of the queues. The 'offence' took place during half term, so it's quite possible that it was busy and that I had my children with me. 

I have no evidence, no pictures - just my own poor memory. I have found a couple of local news articles where people have been charged because of mistakes made by the PPC, and one person who references getting charged due to the queues. I also have an article about the nearby supermarket (with its own separate car park that shares the same access) applying for planning for an extra entrance/exit specifically to avoid the queues that amass outside the car park, caused by the car park. 

So my question really is what am I meant to say in my defence when I can't remember what happened? 

Trainerman

Your  SAR will eventually fill in the details, I hope. This will not only tell you how long the alleged overstay is, whether it is ANPR, and whether , in fact, you have more PCNs in the pipeline.

The new template will help, and as long as you mention various points, you can flesh them out in your WS.

I hope that the PPC do not know the identity of the driver, as I believe that they are not PoFA compliant and cannot transfer liability to the keeper. If they do not yet know, keep it that way ! You have a defence right there.

The more experienced people will be along later and will give you a steer on any other points. Hopefully @KeithP will drop by soon and confirm the critical dates for you.

Le_Kirk

If you have received a claim form from CCBC in Northampton (and I assume you have as are talking about having completed the AoS) then you are too late to ask for the case to be put on hold, as that is the pre-action protocol for debt claims and you are now in the action phase.  When @KeithP gives you the deadline, he will also post a link to the NEWBIE sticky and then to the new defence template.  You have almost written your defence in the story you tell; you just have to turn it into short punchy legal/technical arguments (in the third person) and save the actual story for the witness statement later in the process.  Read some other threads and you will find others who have written "overstay" defences.

KeithP

RoseNarene said:

I have received a Claim Form...
I have also responded to the claim... my issue date was 10/03 and I responded on 12/03.

I assume ' I responded' means you filed an Acknowledgment of Service using the guidance in the NEWBIES thread. Please confirm.

Filing an AoS on a Saturday means that it would not be accepted until the next working day - today, Monday.
This in turn means that in your case you have only actually lost one day of Defence preparation time.

With a Claim Issue Date of 10th March, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service on 14th March, you have until 4pm on Monday 11th April 2022 to file your Defence.

That's four weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.

To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look at the second post in the NEWBIES thread.

Don't miss the deadline for filing a Defence.

Do not try and file a Defence via the MoneyClaimOnline website. Once an Acknowledgment of Service has been filed, the MCOL website should be treated as 'read only'.

RoseNarene

Hi, thanks, yes I do mean that I filed the Acknowledgement of Service.

I have looked at the Newbies thread and I know to copy/paste the statement there as my defence, but my question was about what to put in those early paragraphs when I don't even remember why I was there.

Le_Kirk

Unfortunately we on the forum have even less chance of writing a defence for you as we weren't there!  Having said that, you could research on the forum (as I suggested) and see what other posters have said, particularly about that same car park - do we know where it is (other regulars may have come across it).  I note it is Highview, try searching the forum for Highview.  They do not use POFA so, providing you have not "outed" the driver, they cannot hold the keeper liable.

Coupon-mad

I have looked at the Newbies thread and I know to copy/paste the statement there as my defence,

Statement in the NEWBIES thread to copy and paste?  No, that's an appeal.  If you were reading the first post of the NEWBIES thread you were reading how to appeal.  You were reading the wring post of it. The second post is about court defences.

The defence itself is in the Template Defence thread and I tell everyone what to put.  What you don't know (about the event) but also what basics you do know about, e.g. the car park and who might have been driving and what business the family would have had to be there (shopping?  Residential car park? Whatever you do know).

RoseNarene

I'm pretty sure I was looking at the right bit.

This is the bit of the defence I'm concerned about writing:

Explain briefly what business the driver had there & what went wrong?  Were signs obscured/unlit in darkness? Did a permit slip off the dash, or the keypad failed to record the full VRM?   If the PCN was issued at a residential site where you live, mention your parking rights - equally good if there's no mention of permit obligations - in your lease.

Because I cannot remember literally anything. I can't say I wasn't driving because no one else drives my car. I can't say that the signage was poor, because I park there all the time and I know the time limit. I assume I was there for shopping, since it's a retail park, but I can only guess at why I overstayed. Long queues at the checkouts? Lost track of time? Children issue? Long queues in/out of the car park? From my memory of the parking letters I got, I don't think I overstayed for long - maybe 20-30 minutes.

This is why I came here - to ask what I'm meant to say when I can't remember anything as it was so long ago. 

Coupon-mad

It sounds like a possible double visit, a double dip ANPR error:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5550336/double-dip-parking-list-of-cases/p1

I'd be saying:

The Defendant has seen no actual evidence of continuous parking time and has no idea about any breach, which is denied.  The Defendant shops at the location but has never knowingly overstayed, so it is suggested that this instance is more likely to be a typical ANPR error known as a 'double dip' (a phrase even used by Government in the new Code of Practice linked in this defence).  This is known in the industry as an inherent and well-documented likely flaw of ANPR, which cannot be relied upon to sign off a PCN without human checks.  AOS members are required to carry out manual checks to discount the possibility of 'orphan images' in the middle, denoting two visits within 24 hours, wrongly read as one period of parking (for example to return something, or to buy a forgotten item).  Given that ANPR defaults to 'first in, last out' images, the Claimant is put to strict proof of all ANPR captures of the vehicle onsite that day and of their documented human checks before this PCN was issued.

RoseNarene

Thank you! That's really helpful.

Another thought - would it be helpful to get bank account info and see where I spent money that day? Or is that not worth the trip (my banking app doesn't go back far enough)?

The car park was Norwich Riverside, by the way. I have searched the forum for other cases regarding this car park and will draw on those that I've read. Can I mention anything about signage if they have, if their case is from a similar time?

Since the case has come this far, will it definitely go to court, or is there a chance they could back out before then?

Coupon-mad

The template already covers unclear signs.  Don't remove anything from it.

The reason I wrote that bit for your point #3 as I did, even though you don't know for sure it was a return visit, is that they will find it very hard to refute what you are saying.  They will probably have deleted other ANPR images from that day and won't have notes of manual checks.  Too hard for them to evidence, hopefully.

Your bank info will be useful at WS and evidence stage, later on just before the hearing.  Yes they often discontinue before hearings but crack on as if a Judge will read all this in the end.