Seller Has No Gas or Electricity Cerificates

TheJP

markin said:

If new homes and 'newly refurbished' didn't come at a huge premium i bet most FTB would be happy to go new, but in the real world many FTB can't buy new and don't have the budget to do any work in the first 3-5 years, so a 6 year boiler with maintenance is better than a 12 year boiler with no maintenance done!

A service can spot small water leaks or rubber seals failing and save the boiler from being destroyed by water or it leaking gases!  For every 1 that has been 'trouble free' the is probably 1 that got killed prematurely. And it wont be running very efficiently if the chamber hasn't been scrubbed clean as the manufacture recommends, You can't tar all plumbers with the same brush just because you had a bad one.

But you cant expect premium and pay sub premium which is the issue with quite a few FTBs. They want the newness of a new build but expect the seller to pay for that premium. Houses need to be maintained the older the house the more need for maintenance. If buyers budget for this/accept they will need to pay to keep it maintained then expectations are managed.

doodling

Hi,

markin said:

[...]

A service can spot small water leaks or rubber seals failing and save the boiler from being destroyed by water or it leaking gases!  For every 1 that has been 'trouble free' the is probably 1 that got killed prematurely. And it wont be running very efficiently if the chamber hasn't been scrubbed clean as the manufacture recommends, You can't tar all plumbers with the same brush just because you had a bad one.

In general, servicing a modern gas boiler on an annual basis has only one point and that is to maintain the warranty.  There is a cost / benefit analysis to be done on that, as with all insurance (and I fully understand that the value of insurance depends on individual circumstances).

Where are these small water or gas leaks coming from?  I would speculate that in the vast majority of cases they either originate from poor original installation or from damage occurring during a service.  Water leaks should not just happen (and if they do then it will be the heat exchanger as that is the only wet part that has any wear which could affect water tightness and which generally means a new boiler anyway) and modern flexible seals will last decades.

The only thing I do agree with is that the heat exchanges appear to be made of a material which gradually decomposes creating small amounts of metallic "crud" and it makes sense for that to be cleaned out occasionally.  I doubt it affects efficiency though, other than the crud being formed from what was the ribs on the heat exchanger to improve heat transfer and I don't think a service involves reattaching it!

As an example, I recently had my boiler serviced, having had the house for 8 years I thought that it was probably worth the burner having a bit of a clean out and the combustion quality checked.  Apart from having to assist the technician from the manufacturer in reassembling it (!), the only outcome was the creation of leak from the condensate syphon where the technician had split it when being less than careful in removing it (which revealed itself several days later when the boiler started dripping).  I replaced that myself, not wanting them to come back and damage something else.  The technician didn't even check the exhaust gas composition.

I agree that it is worth having a boiler serviced occasionally but annually is too frequent for modern boilers - about every 5 years is probably sensible, but I'd probably service at one year old as well just to maintain the warranty and get a second opinion on whether there are any installation defects.

FataVerde

TheJP said:

powerful_Rogue said:

This thing about buyers and boilers really irks me. The house I sold last year had a boiler installed in 2006. Had a couple of services in the following years and then nothing since. In the 14 years, nothing went wrong with the boiler. For peace of mind to the buyer I got it serviced  - Boiler was still in tip top condition with no issues.

However the amount of viewers that said 'Oh, 14 years old, obviously it will need replacing'. Fortunately the viewers that said that never went onto make an offer - I would have ignored any request for a discount just so they could replace a fully working boiler.

No different to wiring that is old an may need to be replaced or windows where they are nearing end of life. Boilers last (depending on make and service history (i know i know) around 10-20 years. If i was buying a house and the boiler was 14+ years with no service history id probably want it checked out, nothing worse than having no heating or hot water with a family and everyday life to carry on with.

My current house, the boiler was original (22 years) however no service history and it had been moved as part of an extension. The house i was buying was part ex and a bit of googling showed me i could have quite a bit of wiggle room, end result was £3k reduction for a new boiler.  

Did you have it checked or just asked for the reduction on the basis of boiler age?

FataVerde

ChasingtheWelshdream said:

This is interesting from buyers’ perspectives.

Our mum may be selling her house next year and the boiler is 12 years old but has never had an issue. She has it serviced every year (for her piece of mind only) and it works perfectly.

We arranged the installation and have the relevant paperwork ready to produce for any conveyancing. But would not entertain a discount because it is ‘old’. There is nothing wrong with it.

It is in an inconvenient location (bedroom cupboard) so buyers may well wish to replace/move. But that would be their choice and not a reason to ask for a reduction.

Weirdly, because we had it installed (same model and time as doing our own house) it doesn’t actually feel that old! Must be my age!

When we bought our current house (an empty doer-upper) the boiler was only a couple of years old, with an installation cert but just out of warranty. All we wanted was to know that we could expect hot water on moving day. The agent allowed us in to turn it on and run for 1/2 hour to check the radiators (which were ancient but fine). Then off his own back the agent arranged for a gas man to come in and service the boiler the following day. Turns out he likes to do that for all his sales as a goodwill gesture to the buyers. 

We certainly were not expecting it but it did give us piece of mind. The boiler is still here, now 8 years old, no issues and will stay until it dies.

Precisely, but both your mother and your seller had the boiler serviced and produced certificates, none of which my sellers are happy to do. My offer was on the higher end so yes, I do expect to see some certification. The vendors actually said they had the boiler serviced in 2019 but don't have the certificate. In another form, they said they had no service on the boiler. And the boiler was not on during my viewings in oct/Nov or that of my surveyor in December.

TheJP

FataVerde said:

TheJP said:

powerful_Rogue said:

This thing about buyers and boilers really irks me. The house I sold last year had a boiler installed in 2006. Had a couple of services in the following years and then nothing since. In the 14 years, nothing went wrong with the boiler. For peace of mind to the buyer I got it serviced  - Boiler was still in tip top condition with no issues.

However the amount of viewers that said 'Oh, 14 years old, obviously it will need replacing'. Fortunately the viewers that said that never went onto make an offer - I would have ignored any request for a discount just so they could replace a fully working boiler.

No different to wiring that is old an may need to be replaced or windows where they are nearing end of life. Boilers last (depending on make and service history (i know i know) around 10-20 years. If i was buying a house and the boiler was 14+ years with no service history id probably want it checked out, nothing worse than having no heating or hot water with a family and everyday life to carry on with.

My current house, the boiler was original (22 years) however no service history and it had been moved as part of an extension. The house i was buying was part ex and a bit of googling showed me i could have quite a bit of wiggle room, end result was £3k reduction for a new boiler.  

Did you have it checked or just asked for the reduction on the basis of boiler age?

I didn't have it checked out however the house was a part ex with a big developer and my research showed that quite often they will give reductions to ensure the house sale goes through as their margins can be quite large. 

jennifernil

Our house, which includes a "granny flat" is coming up on 33 years old, we have been here since day 1.    33 is a good age for a boiler!  

 Most of the fittings are "original", and well  maintained, not many things have had to be replaced in the last 33 years.....3 outside lights,  1 CH pump, several TRVs, 2 CH timers, 3 extractor fans , 1  bathroom fan heater, 1 kitchen tap, 1 hob, 1 oven, and the sink, tap and worktop in the utility room.....these last by choice, not need.  All this we have been able to do ourselves.

We recently decided to have our en suite revamped, we wanted a walk in shower instead of one over the bath, and we have plans to have one other bathroom revamped for the same reason.  The third one will stay with an over bath shower, so will not be revamped unless essential.

The kitchens are good quality and perfectly servicable, and we like them, as is all the flooring, the boilers work perfectly, but are now inefficient, and for that reason we will have the  main one replaced this year.  Our boiler  man advised to leave them alone as long as they keep going as "they do not make them like they used to"

We have no plans to move, so when the house does eventually have to be sold, it will be a "blank canvas" for someone to fit out to their own taste, and the price will no doubt be set to reflect that.

We do have our cars serviced regularly, but not our house.  Things are fixed when they need to be fixed.  Fortunately it is not a house that would be likely to be bought by FTBs.

Noneforit999

We are about to put our 7 year old house on the market.

In terms of the boiler, we didn't bother the first three years but for some reason (can't recall why) we took out Homecare on years 4 so its been 'serviced' yearly since then. No idea where the paperwork is though, it was only serviced as its a requirement of the Homecare policy though. In hindsight, I have probably paid £600 over three years for homecare, plus a £60 excess and the only claim has been some tank as part of the system which was leaking but looking online they are £80 and it took him an hour to fix it so I would have been better off not bothering with the cover. 

In terms of electrics, I have the original test stuff from when it was built but since then I have added some electrics in the garage and garden myself so the original test certificate is not really appropriate anymore. Although I am allowed to DIY these in terms of the regulations, I will likely just pull them all out before sale to avoid any delays from buyers being worried about them.

Comparing an annual boiler service to a service on a car is hardly fair. 

FataVerde

Update: I had another viewing for one of the inspections now that the house is empty. I turned on the boiler and left it on for 15-20 minutes. There was hot water with significant delay but none of the radiators in the house were warming up. I suspect the boiler, which is over 12 years old, is broken. Or could there be something else? I've had 2 viewings in November and my surveyor inspected the house in December and the boiler/heat was never on. 

TheJP

FataVerde said:

Update: I had another viewing for one of the inspections now that the house is empty. I turned on the boiler and left it on for 15-20 minutes. There was hot water with significant delay but none of the radiators in the house were warming up. I suspect the boiler, which is over 12 years old, is broken. Or could there be something else? I've had 2 viewings in November and my surveyor inspected the house in December and the boiler/heat was never on. 

What boiler system is it, combi or gravity fed? This makes a big difference as combi will give you hot water after about 30 seconds, gravity fed is a tank in the loft that is heated up and the water is fed from there. The radiators can take some time to reach heat if the system has been off for a while. 12 years for a boiler isn't old. How long did you carry out your 'test' for?

Slithery

FataVerde said:

Update: I had another viewing for one of the inspections now that the house is empty. I turned on the boiler and left it on for 15-20 minutes. There was hot water with significant delay but none of the radiators in the house were warming up. I suspect the boiler, which is over 12 years old, is broken. Or could there be something else? I've had 2 viewings in November and my surveyor inspected the house in December and the boiler/heat was never on. 

What did the boiler inspection that everyone has been saying is your responsibility to book and pay for if you want one have to say about it?