PCN. Premier Park, Nottingham Street Car Park, Melton Mowbray - Advice, Please

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

There are several defence angles:

- the ANPR clock is not synchronised with the pay & display machine clock (they never are) and you assert that you left within ten minutes and the ''out' camera timer was 'out (deliberately or negligently);

- whilst the primary contract to pay the small fee to park was prominently displayed with a large font tariff list, the secondary contract was not.  If it was there at all it was in minuscule text and £100 was not displayed in the same large font as the tariff list. There was no warning at all on or at the machine (the point of sale). There was no knowledge nor acceptance of a secondary contract;

- in any event, the £170 supposedly 'agreed' sum now claimed bears no relation to the £1 fee per hour.  It is disproportionate snd unconscionable and the Beavis case (which featured very clear signage and a free car park) is distinguished.

Thanks for this ... I was writing as you were posting.

I've attached photos of the sign and the machine.  I'm afraid it all looks clear enough in terms of font size, although the point of sale does not specifically warn that PCs apply, simply instructs to check the signage for details.

An ANPR/P&D machine synch error could tie in nicely with Trainerman's advice to factor in time to exit with the 10 mins grace period.  I was not aware that such errors were common, which helps also with inducing doubt as to the timeline as a whole.

Lack of proportionality is presumably always worth incorporating in a defence.

No-one has yet commented on my view that the signage is misleading/ambiguous with regard to the post 5pm tariff.  I would appreciate feedback on this, please. 

Coupon-mad

No-one has yet commented on my view that the signage is misleading/ambiguous with regard to the post 5pm tariff.  I would appreciate feedback on this, please. 

I agree and that is a good defence.

Falcon269

Trainerman said:

I would suggest then that you actually read through the template defence. You will see that it covers all the bases anyway, and it becomes a case of what, for you, are the best points to put into paras 2 and 3 (and possibly more).

Sounds like your main points are poor signage, both in not being clear as to tariff and not clearly forming a secondary contract.and then also, the claimant being put to strict proof that the clocks are correctly synchronised and you were really there for the duration stated.

All good advice and greatly appreciated - thank you.

Although I have read the template defence several times, I went back this afternoon to read it - and the entire thread that follows after it - once more.  I also went through the Newbie FAQ thread from end to end again.  I have to say that both could do with some culling.  Perhaps take the latest Template Defence and post it in a new sticky then lock it down so that only C-M and other forum specialists can post there?  This would provide clarity and assurance that the TD is the latest and greatest advice, while preventing newbies from falling foul of the 'don't post here, start your own thread' mistake.  It would also save folks like me from wading through 20+ pages of such posts in search of the occasional nugget therein.

I also noted the excellent Defence and Witness Statement by robertcox999 (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77614685/#Comment_77614685) referenced as an exemplar in the Newbies FAQs but I wonder if his Defence is still appropriate to follow given the March 22 update to the TD.  It's this kind of thing that is confusing to novices like me and contributes to uncertainty about the course we're following.  It's kind of disconcerting to see FAQs that don't appear to have been updated since 2013/2014, even though I'm sure they've been reviewed many times.  Again, maybe cut and paste all that remains current over to a new thread and delete the old one?  I know, I know - all more work for the very busy advisors here but it might help reduce the questions coming from the easily confused.  Like me ...

It seems, too, that I have been mixing up a Defence with a Witness Statement and so will adjust my forward thinking accordingly.

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

No-one has yet commented on my view that the signage is misleading/ambiguous with regard to the post 5pm tariff.  I would appreciate feedback on this, please. 

I agree and that is a good defence.

Good to know, thanks.

Do you by chance have any case precedence I could quote regarding ANPR/P&D machine clock synchronisation issues?

Coupon-mad

I'm well aware that the NEWBIES thread needs culling.  Guess what I'm waiting for?

Falcon269

Let me guess ...


... Christmas?

Seriously, thanks for all you do and I'm sure the update will come once the new government directive is fully in place. 

Coupon-mad

Haha!

Nope, apart from Xmas and real life family stuff I am busy with the New Code as you might imagine, because I'm on the Steering Group and providing the Government with evidence.

The final (really final this time...the third) Public Consultation and the draft Impact Assessment are imminently anticipated.

I can't fit in culling of the NEWBIES thread and in view of the above, that would just be a waste of time right now.

I am well aware it (and the Template Defence) will need a re-write next year anyway, once the new regulatory regime is re-published.

Le_Kirk

Falcon269 said:

I also noted the excellent Defence and Witness Statement by robertcox999 (https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/77614685/#Comment_77614685) referenced as an exemplar in the Newbies FAQs but I wonder if his Defence is still appropriate to follow given the March 22 update to the TD.  It's this kind of thing that is confusing to novices like me and contributes to uncertainty about the course we're following.  It's kind of disconcerting to see FAQs that don't appear to have been updated since 2013/2014, even though I'm sure they've been reviewed many times.  Again, maybe cut and paste all that remains current over to a new thread and delete the old one?  I know, I know - all more work for the very busy advisors here but it might help reduce the questions coming from the easily confused.  Like me ...

It seems, too, that I have been mixing up a Defence with a Witness Statement and so will adjust my forward thinking accordingly.

The witness statement by @robertcox999 is no longer recommended due only to things moving on and you are better off using one by @aphex007
Easy enough to mix up defence and WS but a defence is written in  the third person and is a series of legal, technical arguments whilst a WS is written in the first person and is a narrative of what happened on the day and backs up and supports the defence with evidence.

Falcon269

Thanks for clarifying that, Le Kirk.

If anyone else reading this would like to see the aphex007 Witness Statement it's here: 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cd5oqk90qga96p9/Draft_Witness_Bundle_(redacted)_v3.

The source thread is here

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6320414/yet-another-ukpc-dcb-legal-ltd-ws-bundle/p15

A regular search was unsuccessful with the search words I thought appropriate but looking at aphex007's profile, I found a list of their threads under the Thanks tally and that pointed me in the right direction.

One further observation.  In para 28, final sentence, of the actual Witness Statement there is a small but humorous typo.  It should read Small Claims Track, not Small Clams Track.   

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

Haha!

Nope, apart from Xmas and real life family stuff I am busy with the New Code as you might imagine, because I'm on the Steering Group and providing the Government with evidence.

The final (really final this time...the third) Public Consultation and the draft Impact Assessment are imminently anticipated.

I can't fit in culling of the NEWBIES thread and in view of the above, that would just be a waste of time right now.

I am well aware it (and the Template Defence) will need a re-write next year anyway, once the new regulatory regime is re-published.

Fully understand why you're holding off until the New Code is successfully enacted.  Meanwhile, I hope Santa brings you a 25-hour day and 52 extra Sundays a year.