PCN. Premier Park, Nottingham Street Car Park, Melton Mowbray - Advice, Please

MothballsWallet

PP are like those Indian refund/tech support scammers who just hand the headset to their colleague sitting next to them when they say "I'll transfer you to my <insert other job title here>".

Falcon269

One year to the day from the original PCN, and after the standard litany of debt collector letters throughout the summer, I have received an LBC letter from everyone's favourite legal cowboy outfit, Gladstones.

I have sent off an SAR to Premier Park and the stock request to Gladstones instructing them to put the matter on hold for 30 days while I pursue debt advice.

In the SAR, in addition to the standard 'any and all' data request, I have specifically asked for details of the actual parking ticket issued to me and details of their contract with the landowner, to include the date the landowner legally became sole proprietor of the site.  The latter because there is a suggestion the contract with PP was signed before the landowner actually completed purchase of the site; the former because I believe the original ticket showed a parking end time later than the actual time I left the car park.  If that's the case, I would assume/hope their claim against me would fail automatically in court.

One thing that I would appreciate advice on at this stage.  I travel quite a lot and can be away from home for 6 - 8 weeks at a time.  Clearly it would be awkward if any notification of impending court action were to arrive while I am away. 

Can anyone give me a rough idea how the timeline typically works from receipt of LBC to actual court engagement?

As always, many thanks in advance. 

KeithP

Falcon269 said:

One thing that I would appreciate advice on at this stage.  I travel quite a lot and can be away from home for 6 - 8 weeks at a time.  Clearly it would be awkward if any notification of impending court action were to arrive while I am away. 

Can anyone give me a rough idea how the timeline typically works from receipt of LBC to actual court engagement?

There is no point in giving 'typical' timescales.

We see cases progress to court in a matter of weeks in some cases. Earlier this week, may've been earlier today even, we have seen a ParkingEye case progress to court in a amazingly fast manner. Conversely, we occasionally see a second LBC issued maybe two years after the first LBC.

The parking companies and their legals choose their own timetable, and even that of course can be delayed by how busy a particular court is.

Your best bet is to prepare for any eventuality. Make sure important mail is addressed somewhere where someone will see it in a timely manner.

Le_Kirk

Falcon269 said:

I have sent off an SAR to Premier Park and the stock request to Gladstones instructing them to put the matter on hold for 30 days while I pursue debt advice.

In the SAR, in addition to the standard 'any and all' data request, I have specifically asked for details of the actual parking ticket (1) issued to me and details of their contract with the landowner (2), to include the date the landowner legally became sole proprietor of the site.  The latter because there is a suggestion the contract with PP was signed before the landowner actually completed purchase of the site; the former because I believe the original ticket showed a parking end time later than the actual time I left the car park.  If that's the case, I would assume/hope their claim against me would fail automatically in court.

You should get this (1) because it is your data but, for the same reason, you will not get this (2) as it is not your data and it will only likely be seen at witness statement time in court.

Falcon269

Thanks for the advice.  I'll be sure to get mail covered while I'm away.  

Good news about getting hold of a ticket copy.  And yes, I should have realized that seeking data on something that is not actually related to me isn't going to happen.  Hopefully the ticket will - literally -  be my ticket to avoiding the need to see any witness statements.  

Falcon269

Quick update.  SAR received via email.  Does not include any useful info on the ticket issued, which I requested, nor anything on the contract with the landowner.  No surprise.

Interestingly, I discovered that the landowners (Homeside Property Ltd), Newton Abbot, share directors with Premier Park, Exeter.  Seems they've acquired the land on which the car park stands, which was previously part of the land on which the now-closed Kings Head pub/hotel stands.  I have a suspicion that this means the landowner/PP contract is probably solid, so no avenue of attack there.

Would I be within my rights to go back and ask for further details of the ticket and the info contained in the parking machine log, or is this something that would only be made available if this goes to court?  All I have on the ticket info is the time the permit started and the time it ended, a one hour block which is unfortunately 13 minutes less than the in/out times confirmed by the ANPR.  Allowing for 10 mins grace period, I'm screwed over 3 mins.

As I said much earlier in the thread, I contend that the signage showing evening/overnight parking rates is open to misinterpretation.  It says 20p for one hour after 5pm between 5pm and 7:30am;  £1.50 for the period 5pm to 8:30am.  I took this to mean 40p buys 2 hours and so on, extrapolating from the principle of hourly rates shown on the sign for the daytime/business hours period.

The reason I want sight of the actual ticket and the machine logs is I know I paid 50p and received no change, so I assumed I had at least 2 hours in hand.  I have a vague recollection of the ticket showing an end park time confirming as much but threw the ticket away before the PCN arrived.

In the opinion of the experts here, is it worth fighting this ticket on the above basis alone (everything else procedurally seems watertight for PP) or should I consider a 'without prejudice' offer to pay the basic initial PCN fee to shut it down now?

Coupon-mad

No-one will tell you to pay this.

Allowing for 10 mins grace period, I'm screwed over 3 mins.

Not if a fair consideration period on arrival is also applied.  The new Government (stalled but incoming) statutory Code of Practice makes it clear that a consideration period on arrival must be applied in addition to the minimum ten minutes grace period at the end.

That also matches what the BPA used to say:
https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

Kelvin Reynolds, BPA Director of Corporate Affairs says there is a difference between ‘grace’ periods and ‘observation’ periods in parking and that good practice allows for this.

“An observation period is the time when an enforcement officer should be able to determine what the motorist intends to do once in the car park.  Our guidance specifically says that there must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether they want to comply with the operator’s conditions and either drive away or pay for a ticket,” he explains.

“No time limit is specified.  This is because it might take one person five minutes, but another person 10 minutes depending on various factors, not limited to disability.”

The BPA’s guidance defines the ‘grace period’ as the time allowed after permitted or paid-for parking has expired but before any kind of enforcement takes place.

Kelvin continues: “In the instance of a PCN being issued while a ticket is being purchased, the operator has clearly not given the motorist sufficient time to read the signs and comply as per the operator’s own rules.  If a motorist decides they do not want to comply and leaves the car park, then a reasonable period of time should be provided also.”

...and then the BPA changed their minds about fairness and their AOS members managed to push the BPA to disingenuously re-write their CoP to suggest that the consideration period just doesn't exist if the driver stays and pays.

Well the Govt has clearly seen right through that crap and re-written it for the future.  Strictly speaking the incoming (stalled) new Code doesn't apply yet but in fact the new code DOES assist you because it sets out 'best practice' and the only issues being revisited are the level of parking charge and the banning of the false 'DRA fee' the rogue industry want to enhance the money by.

The BPA has also stated publicly in the Spring, that it expects its members to abide by the new Code as soon as possible because it is coming in regardless.

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

No-one will tell you to pay this.

Allowing for 10 mins grace period, I'm screwed over 3 mins.

Not if a fair consideration period on arrival is also applied.  The new Government (stalled but incoming) statutory Code of Practice makes it clear that a consideration period on arrival must be applied in addition to the minimum ten minutes grace period at the end.

That also matches what the BPA used to say:
https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

Thanks Coupon Mad but I fear I'm out of luck trying this route, too.

Unfortunately, before I knew anything about PCNs and the rogue industry behind it, I submitted a POPLA appeal in which I mentioned that I spent 5 -6 minutes checking out the site and rates before parking and returning to the payment machine and purchasing a ticket.  The one hour (plus 13) clock started ticking at that point and I don't think I could successfully claim a consideration period on top. 

I can only see two options here:  fight on using the misinterpretation of ambiguous signage as basis of my defence, or fold and look to reduce my losses via the 'without prejudice' offer route.

What does the panel think? 

Coupon-mad

You already lost at POPLA? 

Ignore them then - no paying.

Defend if you get a claim.  What I said is a strong defence.  Nothing to worry about as long as you don't ignore a court claim or move house without telling Prier Park.

That's all.

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

You already lost at POPLA? 

Ignore them then - no paying.

Defend if you get a claim.  What I said is a strong defence.  Nothing to worry about as long as you don't ignore a court claim or move house without telling Prier Park.

That's all.

Yes, POPLA appeal was submitted a year ago and rejected - as usual.

So, if I read you right, you're saying I should still defend on the basis of a fair consideration period on arrival, even though I've already admitted in writing that my consideration period was 5 - 6 minutes, after which I decided to park and accept the contract terms?  Sorry, but I'm struggling with the logic here.

ANPR shows me arriving at 18:33 and departing at 19:53, a total onsite period of 1 hour 20 mins.

The permit/ticket was purchased at 18:40 and shows a validity period of one hour.  

The permitted parking period ended at 19:40 but I did not depart until 19:53.  That's 3 mins over the industry standard 10 mins grace period.

If I were the PP solicitor, I would argue that the consideration period ended when the ticket was purchased 7 mins after arrival.  I would point out that the defendant said as much in writing in his POPLA appeal, thus the consideration period is irrelevant to the case. 

What am I missing, please?  How should I couch a defence on these grounds?