PCN. Premier Park, Nottingham Street Car Park, Melton Mowbray - Advice, Please

Falcon269

Hi and thanks in advance for considering this post.

As a newbie I’ve read the relevant sticky threads and spent several hours going through POPLA appeal posts and other information here.  That’s no guarantee that I won’t still make rookie errors but I’m at least aware and trying to find out what I need to do from the experience of others.

Having lived outside the UK for the past 17 years the existence of PPCs and their dodgy activities was a mystery to me until I moved back here this year and got trapped by Premier Park last month.  The PCN arrived within a week of the event and states it was issued for Whole Period of Parking Not Paid For.  I was in the car park for 1 hour and 19 minutes in total.

In my ignorance, I accepted the invitation to use their initial appeal process and sent the following the day after getting the PCN in the post:

I have received a PCN which claims that I did not pay for parking in the Nottingham St car park, Melton Mowbray, on 29 Oct 2021. This is an erroneous claim which must be attributable to a problem with your systems. If you check your CCTV footage you will see that I drove into the car park at 18:33 and after looking for notices advising rates, returned to the pay booth at the entrance where I used my headlights to view the information there. I then reversed into a bay about 40 metres from the pay machine and returned to arrange payment via phone app.

I discovered that the app I have on my phone was not compatible with your system and so paid 50p in cash and received a ticket showing that I had paid for parking until some time after 20:00. I put the ticket on the dash of my car and left the car park at approx 18:38 to catch up with my wife who had left a few minutes ahead of me. We returned at 19:52 and departed as shown on your camera footage. The ticket was discarded as it was no longer required, which is regrettable but since I had paid and was back before the expiry time there was no reason to retain it.

I note from local reviews of this car park that other drivers have had problems with the pay machine not accepting cash payments or failing to produce tickets in receipt of phone app/credit card payments. Clearly there is an ongoing issue with your systems at this location and I therefore reject your PCN and decline to pay it on the grounds that I had paid correctly and in full for the period I was parked.

Naturally this was rejected and I have been invited to appeal via POPLA - a futile step but one that I understand has to be taken, if I decide to pursue this further.  This is where I would appreciate your advice.

I have already inadvertently closed down the Registered Keeper route by the first person wording of my appeal.  I didn’t find this forum until after the event - sorry.

I was aware that this was a pay & display car park and visually the signage appears adequate on first inspection.  There are two points there which I will return to in a moment.

The crux of this is that I paid 50p for parking, displayed the ticket as required and left content that I had parked for much less time than the period paid for.  The PCN through the post was an unwelcome surprise and I just assumed it was a machine error which would be sorted on appeal.  Live and learn.

Going back to the signs at the entrance detailing times and rates, I suspect that this is where the trap was baited.  Day time hourly rates are clear and specific.  The Sunday and Evening (everyday) rates are potentially ambiguous, possibly deliberately so.  They state the following:

Up to 1 hour - 20p (payment by coin only)

All evening (17:00 - 08:30) - £1.50

Without knowing precisely what Premier Park mean by Whole Period of Parking Not Paid For I suspect my mistake was in assuming that one could extrapolate the hourly rate and thus 40p buys 2 hours and so on.  I didn’t want to park overnight and anticipated staying no more than 2 hours in total, so put in a 50p coin (no change, naturally) and thought all was well. 

I recall checking the end time on the ticket and although I am not certain on this, believe it was 20:50 or thereabouts.   I checked to ensure that the second hour had been registered because I was concerned about the ambiguity in the displayed rates. 

Aside from the evening rate ambiguity, the signage identifies Premier Park as privately managing the car park but does not appear to name the landowner  that Premier Park is contracted with.  However, I have read elsewhere in another case that Premier Park and this landowner entered into their contract 2 weeks before the landowner officially completed the acquisition of the property on which the car park stands, a former pub The Kings Head.

So, your advice please.  Is it worth fighting this PCN on any or a combination of the following points:

1.            Grace Period.  If I am correct in thinking that there were only two evening rate contract options (up to one hour or full overnight), I was still only in the car park for 1 hour and 19 minutes (per the PCN) of which around ten minutes were spent establishing the rates applicable, attempting unsuccessfully to pay by phone app and finally paying by cash.  Allowing for an additional grace period at the end of the hour, would this be an acceptable argument?

2.            Ambiguous Payment Rates.   Is it reasonable for a person to extrapolate an hourly rate during the evening hours or is it acceptable (and legally enforceable) for Premier Park to offer only two contract options?

3.            Contract Irregularities.  The name of the Landowner is not shown on the signs.  The Landowner and Premier Park may have concluded their contract ahead of the Landowner obtaining legal title to the property, thus voiding the their contract?

I have another 9 days remaining to enter an appeal to POPLA.   Before I submit this - assuming the panel thinks it worthwhile - a few final questions. 

1.            Is it worth asking Premier Park to specify the exact meaning of Whole Period of Parking Not Paid For on the PCN?

2.            Can I demand Premier Park provide a copy of the ticket issued (or the details thereon), together with maintenance records for the issuing machine? 

3.            Can I demand that Premier Park provide more details from their CCTV/ANPR to confirm the timeline I have outlined above.  Without this and the ticket information, I have no way of proving any part of my case.

3.            Can I demand that Premier Park provide details of the Landowner and the contract authorizing them to manage the car park?     

4.            Premier Park have not provided a reply e-mail address in any of their e-mails to me so far.  Advice I’ve seen here says never call a PPC on the phone and don’t trust snail mail, recorded or otherwise.  How best to contact them for this information in that case?

Again, many thanks for taking time to read through this and for providing a forum with advice and support  for drivers who have been conned by these low-lives.

 

 

D_P_Dance

If you think that the PC's equipment was at fault complain to Trading Standards.  Also complain to your MP.  

Fruitcake

PoPLA codes last 32 days, so don't rush it, but don't miss the appeal deadline either. Show us your draft before you submit it.
Use all the points available to you listed in the third post of the NEWBIES.

These should include at least,

Not the landowner
No standing to issue charges in their own name
Inadequate signage
PDT machine failure
Lack of grace periods
Looking for a space and reading signage is not parking
Anything else relevant.

You should get pics of the site and signage to support your inadequate and confusing signage point, including the PDT machines. Was there a requirement to enter your VRM?

D_P_Dance

Also, is the paperwork kosher, was it sent in a timely manner?  Does it cpmply with POFA?

Falcon269

An addition to the above.

Re-reading my appeal and my question re Grace Period, I have shot myself in the foot.  I stated in my appeal that I left to catch up with my wife at 18:38 which is five minutes after our timed arrival.  I'm sure it was longer but they have this time in writing now.  Doh!

Also, parking sign says 'Parking Period Commences 5 Minutes after Entry'.  Not sure if this legally enforceable but moot in this case given my admission in the appeal.  Double-doh!

Options rapidly diminishing, I fear. 

Coupon-mad

Hmmm...certainly don't pay.  I am thinking this can't win at POPLA and maybe it's better to pass on that option and instead reply to PP telling them NOT to pass the case to any debt collector, not to add their false £70 because the case remains disputed.

Under FCA rules which the BPA expects AOS members to abide by, a disputed debt cannot go to debt recovery and they must stop such demands.

Because the new independent Single Appeals Service isn't in place yet (coming as part of law and statutory regulation of the rogue industry in 2022) you do not trust the self-serving POPLA nor do you accept the unfair non-existent 'consideration period' rule inflicted on motorists by the BPA's changes in January 2020, when they used to allow flexible grace time to purchase tickets.

As such, you would prefer that either a court decides the dispute in 2022, or the Single Appeals Service if made available to existing cases as an ADR.  Whatever PP decide, for the avoidance of doubt, no debt demands are appropriate and no fake added costs, only court fees if that route is followed.

Falcon269

D_P_Dance said:

If you think that the PC's equipment was at fault complain to Trading Standards.  Also complain to your MP.  

Unfortunately, I have no evidence to take to Trading Standards, nor to warrant a complaint - at this stage - to my MP.  Hence my questions about being able to demand details of the specific 'charge' by the PPC, and information regarding the ticket issued, equipment maintenance logs etc.  

Are the latter routinely provided by the PPC to POPLA or do I have to ask them for this?  Do I ask before submitting the POPLA appeal or use it as a follow-up to the inevitable (well, highly likely) rejection by POPLA?

Falcon269

D_P_Dance said:

Also, is the paperwork kosher, was it sent in a timely manner?  Does it cpmply with POFA?

Paperwork received on 6 Nov 21, event occurred on 29 Oct 21 so yes, in a timely manner.

Not being versed in the intricacies of POFA, I can only say that POFA 2012 (Para 9(2)(f), Schedule 4) is referenced in the PCN.

Fruitcake

It is always worth complaining to your MP. It's the only reason why the parking bill was introduced and passed. 

Falcon269

Fruitcake said:

PoPLA codes last 32 days, so don't rush it, but don't miss the appeal deadline either. Show us your draft before you submit it.
Use all the points available to you listed in the third post of the NEWBIES.

These should include at least,

Not the landowner
No standing to issue charges in their own name
Inadequate signage
PDT machine failure
Lack of grace periods
Looking for a space and reading signage is not parking
Anything else relevant.

You should get pics of the site and signage to support your inadequate and confusing signage point, including the PDT machines. Was there a requirement to enter your VRM?

Thank you for the POPLA code info and subsequent comments.

I appreciate the 'kitchen sink' strategy is recommended for POPLA appeals but I do not feel I can argue inadequate signage.  There's plenty of it, it's not dirty, smudged, hidden or whatever.  

It is, however, ambiguous about the evening rates of charge as I mentioned but I was looking for a sanity check from the experts here before going down that rabbit hole.

I can certainly argue the landowner/no standing point but effectively it would be speculative and based solely on the lack of Landowner details on their signs.

The VRM was entered correctly, I confirmed that when studying the ticket for the expiry time.

On reflection, although I messed up by mentioning times (and who was driving) in my first appeal, just because the sign says 'parking begins 5 mins after entry' does not mean that this is legally so.  Would I be right in this assumption that the PPC cannot arbitrarily 'sign away' statutory rights to grace periods/waiting times prior to commencing parking?

Finally, the more I read up, the more things I start to pick up on in the PCN.  In particular, I note that the ANPR photos of the vehicle entering/departing are not themselves date stamped or otherwise authenticated.  Also, whilst the 

rear shot of the vehicle shows the rear, yellow number plate clearly, in the head-on photo of the vehicle the number plate is not visible at all.  However, there are two smaller separate photos of what appears to be the white front number plate.  Intriguingly, neither of these shows the Arnold Clark logo directly beneath the numbers, yet this shows up on the yellow rear number plate photo. It's not unheard of for PPCs to doctor ANPR photos, I believe.  Could this be one of those cases?  Would this be another card to play in the POPLA appeal?

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

Hmmm...certainly don't pay.  I am thinking this can't win at POPLA and maybe it's better to pass on that option and instead reply to PP telling them NOT to pass the case to any debt collector, not to add their false £70 because the case remains disputed.

Under FCA rules which the BPA expects AOS members to abide by, a disputed debt cannot go to debt recovery and they must stop such demands.

Because the new independent Single Appeals Service isn't in place yet (coming as part of law and statutory regulation of the rogue industry in 2022) you do not trust the self-serving POPLA nor do you accept the unfair non-existent 'consideration period' rule inflicted on motorists by the BPA's changes on 2020.

As such, you would prefer that either a court decides the dispute in 2022, or the Single Appeals Service if made available to existing cases as an ADR.  Whatever PP decide, for the avoidance of doubt, no debt demands are appropriate and no fake added costs, only court fees if that route is followed.

You were posting as I was writing!  Thank you and my apologies for addressing various replies out of order. I'm still getting to grips with the forum.

Your suggestion sounds good to me.  I know that a POPLA appeal will crash and burn and putting together a 26-page epic (even edited from someone else's masterwork) seems a disproportionate expenditure of time given that we're contesting a £60 charge here.

What I'm looking to do here more than anything is to clear up this matter of the stated evening/overnight charge rates.  It does seem to me to be a deliberate attempt to mislead drivers into extrapolating an hourly rate beyond the single one-hour period mentioned on the sign.  If the forum expertise tells me otherwise, I'll stop wasting everyone's time and move on.  However, if I'm not alone in thinking this is a ploy to trap the unwary, I will fight it and do what I can to get it changed.  That certainly includes writing to my MP and the local press.