PCN. Premier Park, Nottingham Street Car Park, Melton Mowbray - Advice, Please

Coupon-mad

Ambiguous terms are unenforceable.  If you feel they were ambiguous then they were. Will Hurley of the IPC trade body says so.  Look at my quote from him in our template defence.  Doesn't matter that PP are in the BPA, 

Just send what I said to send andkeep proof (not signed for post, please).  I already told you not to pay, so there is no dilemna about that.

Falcon269

Coupon-mad said:

Ambiguous terms are unenforceable.  If you feel they were ambiguous then they were. Will Hurley of the IPC trade body says so.  Look at my quote from him in our template defence.  Doesn't matter that PP are in the BPA, 

Just send what I said to send andkeep proof (not signed for post, please).  I already told you not to pay, so there is no dilemna about that.

Again, thank you. 

I will send what you advised and keep proof.  How, however, is another question.  

Premier Park's website does not give e-mail contact details.  It is generally rubbish, in fact, very poorly formatted or done so deliberately to make it harder to obtain information.

Both e-mails I have received from them are from 'no reply' e-mail addresses.  Snail mail to their registered office appears to be the only means of contact openly available, with all the risks of 'sorry, not received' that this threatens.

If not Recorded/Registered mail or e-mail, what do you suggest?  Sorry to be asking but all my carrier pigeons are resting for the winter. 

KeithP

Never ever send anything to a parking company or their solicitors using any service that requires a signature.

All that does is give the intended recipient the opportunity to not sign and hence refuse delivery.

All you have then is proof of non-delivery. Not quite what you want.

If you must to use Royal Mail, then send it by standard first class post obtaining a free Certificate of Posting from the Post Office counter. The item is deemed delivered two working days later.

Keep that Certificate of Posting as proof.

Coupon-mad

I didn't say to email it, I knew you'd have to post it.

I was hoping to encourage you to read few more threads, search and read threads here about why not to use signed for post!

Falcon269

I have read many, many posts (about 2-day's worth of reading so far) and had not seen anything enlightening on this topic, hence the question.  A search using 'signed for post' comes up with nothing worthwhile, either.  Just saying.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and particular thanks to KeithP for additional information - much appreciated.

Fruitcake

Falcon269 said:

Fruitcake said:

PoPLA codes last 32 days, so don't rush it, but don't miss the appeal deadline either. Show us your draft before you submit it.
Use all the points available to you listed in the third post of the NEWBIES.

These should include at least,

Not the landowner
No standing to issue charges in their own name
Inadequate signage
PDT machine failure
Lack of grace periods
Looking for a space and reading signage is not parking
Anything else relevant.

You should get pics of the site and signage to support your inadequate and confusing signage point, including the PDT machines. Was there a requirement to enter your VRM?

Thank you for the POPLA code info and subsequent comments.

I appreciate the 'kitchen sink' strategy is recommended for POPLA appeals but I do not feel I can argue inadequate signage.  There's plenty of it, it's not dirty, smudged, hidden or whatever.  

It is, however, ambiguous about the evening rates of charge as I mentioned but I was looking for a sanity check from the experts here before going down that rabbit hole.

I can certainly argue the landowner/no standing point but effectively it would be speculative and based solely on the lack of Landowner details on their signs.

The VRM was entered correctly, I confirmed that when studying the ticket for the expiry time.

On reflection, although I messed up by mentioning times (and who was driving) in my first appeal, just because the sign says 'parking begins 5 mins after entry' does not mean that this is legally so.  Would I be right in this assumption that the PPC cannot arbitrarily 'sign away' statutory rights to grace periods/waiting times prior to commencing parking?

Finally, the more I read up, the more things I start to pick up on in the PCN.  In particular, I note that the ANPR photos of the vehicle entering/departing are not themselves date stamped or otherwise authenticated.  Also, whilst the 

rear shot of the vehicle shows the rear, yellow number plate clearly, in the head-on photo of the vehicle the number plate is not visible at all.  However, there are two smaller separate photos of what appears to be the white front number plate.  Intriguingly, neither of these shows the Arnold Clark logo directly beneath the numbers, yet this shows up on the yellow rear number plate photo. It's not unheard of for PPCs to doctor ANPR photos, I believe.  Could this be one of those cases?  Would this be another card to play in the POPLA appeal?

If wording of the signs is ambiguous, then they are inadequate, so the long signage point should be included plus your comments about the confusing nature of the wording and your interpretation of the Ts and Cs which the Consumer Rights Act 2015 says must favour the motorist.

S69 of CRA2015 says:

69 Contract terms that may have different meanings
(1) If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.

Compare the photo of your number plate with the PPCs images. If they look different, then say so. Something like, the images of my VRM do not match the actual number plate, then show the two images indicating that the PPCs version is either not actually a photo of your number plate, or they have been digitally altered therefore cannot be relied upon.
Mention that the ANPR images do not have embedded timestamps therefore there is no proof that the entry and exit times are accurate or correct. Have a look at the BPA CoP to see if it mentions this as a requirement.

Send the appeal first class from a Post Office counter, and obtain the all important free proof of posting.

Coupon-mad

When I searched the forum using @Umkomass' fantastic search tips, and deselected 'Polls' (having 'recorded delivery' as my keywords and select 'Discussions') I got all these:

• Re: County Court Claim - Private PCN from UK CPM

  Reply by Coupon-mad

  Last Updated: Dec 4, 2019

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  3 results

  NOT recorded delivery!

• Re: Excel - Snow Hill, Wolverhampton

  Reply by Redx

  Last Updated: Jan 1, 2014

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  8 results

  dont send it recorded delivery, because they wont accept it (nobody here mentioned recorded delivery) send it with proof of postage, obtained free at the post office

• Re: Ukcps ntk

  Reply by Coupon-mad

  Last Updated: Mar 20, 2014

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  2 results

  Yep that's fine to post, not recorded delivery though as PPCs don't sign for letters and it's always daft to send things recorded delivery to a company, to arrive on a Saturday!

• Re: NCP - Cant find fine online

  Reply by Coupon-mad

  Last Updated: Jan 21, 2019

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  Then do this, NOT RECORDED DELIVERY
• 
  
• 
  
• Re: Defence to letter received from CCBC 09.03.20

  Reply by Redx

  Last Updated: Apr 29, 2020

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  4 results

  Nobody is signing for deliveries anyway , be it signed for or special delivery , no such thing as recorded It wasn't a good idea before the pandemic , it's chaos at the moment with less proof of delivery...

• Re: VCS Letter Before Claim

  Reply by Coupon-mad

  Last Updated: Mar 14, 2019

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  3 results

  Not recorded delivery (nor email, except to VCS)! Parking firms are unlikely to sign for a recorded delivery item, and then it is not a record of delivery, it's proof of NON delivery which is not...

• Re: Im a Parking ticket idiot aaagggh!

  Reply by Coupon-mad

  Last Updated: Mar 5, 2014

  Forum Home › Motoring › Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking

  8 results

  Not recorded delivery - we say this every day.

Coupon-mad

I didn't bother to select 'newest results' as a filter, so would have got loads more from 2021 had I bothered.

Falcon269

Thank you.  Armed with that knowledge, I can now follow up on the search tips you mentioned and try to find my way around the database more effectively in future. 

'Teach a man to fish and you feed him for life'. 

But sometimes a hungry man just needs a quick sandwich ... 

Falcon269

Thank you, Fruitcake, for another very helpful post.  I will follow your advice and that of CM to frame a letter to Premier Park incorporating all the points you each suggested. 

Cheers!