How do ordinary people make the switch to electric vehicles ?

ontheroad1970

henry24 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

henry24 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

henry24 said:

I'm not against electric vehicles but think things should have stayed as they were until they worked and paying double for a car that will do a quarter of the miles per refill just isn't feasible for me 

henry24 said:

What I meant about until they worked is I want to be able to drive into a charging point and 5 minutes later drive away with 600 miles of driving available just like I can with my diesel 

EV's work perfectly fine.

Cost of entry the EV product is a challenge compared to ICE but, like-for-like, overall cost of ownership will usually work out competitive for the EV.

Range is also becoming far less of a concern now, to the extent that it should not be a limitation in anything but the extreme edge cases.
The best EV's have batteries at up to 100 kWh and that means 400 miles range.  If going further than that in a stint, then you'd need to stop for refreshment, so the energy top-up can be done at the same time and cause no inconvenience.

The EV will do that journey at an energy consumption of around 4 miles/kWh. 
An ICE would be an energy consumption of around 1.5 miles/kWh.

Perhaps you could tell me the electric vehicles with a 400 mile range that I can buy for £22000.

Where did I say you can?

I said that I had a car that would do 600 miles to a fill and that it cost £22000 against 100 for a electric and you said I could get one that would do 400 miles 

I doubt very much that your CX5 does 600 miles to a fill.  It will do on the manufacturers figures, but not in the real world.  

Ergates

henry24 said:

BOWFER said:

henry24 said:

BOWFER said:

henry24 said:

Ergates said:

henry24 said:

What has happened to people being allowed a choice in what car they buy. I don't want an EV so in march I bought one of the last diesel mazda cx5 for £22000 instead of possibly 3 times that for electric. I can't believe in climate change until I see government stopping all flights. Its only 3 weeks since the country had to fire up a coal fired power station. I think when people realise how much they will have to pay for the climate they won't want to. Maybe it's time for someone to start a new political party to put another argument across like Nigel Fararge did 

Climate change and people like you are what happened.  You're entitled to not "believe" in climate change, in the same way that you're entitled to believe in fairies and unicorns, but that doesn't stop you from being very very wrong.

Nobody wants to pay for the necessary changes that we're going to have to make, but people in low-lying coastal areas probably don't want to be flooded either.  Nor do I expect those 180 odd people who died in Germany earlier this year were entirely happy about it.

Climate change is happening.  It's going to be bad and it's going to kill *millions* of people.  Waving your hands in the air wailing "But wut about muh choice?" isn't a good look.  Grow up.

When governments believe in climate change instead of just talking about it then I will. In my opinion it's just normal weather patterns warming up from an ice age and if you remember back only 25 years scientists where saying that's what we were going into. As I put before why did we go back to coal 3 weeks ago instead of turning the electric off, why are we bringing wood pellets from America to give us electricity and then claiming its green. I'm not against electric vehicles but think things should have stayed as they were until they worked and paying double for a car that will do a quarter of the miles per refill just isn't feasible for me 

Mine works great, thanks.

What I meant about until they worked is I want to be able to drive into a charging point and 5 minutes later drive away with 600 miles of driving available just like I can with my diesel 

here we go....not only a climate change denier but one of the "I want to be able to drive 600 miles after 5 mins brigade"
Ignore button incoming.

Am I not allowed an opinion if it disagrees with yours. If my diesel car can fuel up in 5 minutes and then be capable of going 600 miles then why should I be told I now can't do this 

You're entitled to your opinion, just as we're entitled to tell you that your opinion is asinine and explain the reasons why it's asinine.

DevilsAdvocate1

WJB1971 said:

BOWFER said:

I don't accept that anyone earning £20K a year can't lease an electric car.
If anything, it's the best way to do a car on a limited budget as the costs are pretty fixed, no repairs etc.
Then you have the fuel savings, especially if you sign up to a cheap tariff (as I have).
You can easily lease a Leaf or Zoe for not much more than £200 a month
Your trouble is you want an electric car equivalent to your massive XC60.
I find it hard to believe anyone needs a car of that size, so perhaps your expectations and sense of entitlement need to change a bit in line with reducing excessive consumption?

I have scrimped and saved for 25 years to get to the car I wanted and which works for my family as it currently is.

I look forward to the day I won't need such a big car.

However, if you think I have £200 a month going spare to fund the switch, I can tell you I do not.

There in is the problem, I cannot even afford to lease a new Leaf or Zoe, so I will be in the market for an old Leaf or Zoe with their restricted range (yes it is an issue) and the expense of then having to replace an old battery (no I cannot afford to do so).

Why would you replace an old battery.  They don't just last 5 years.  Most guarantees are for 8 to 10 years and some are for 15.  The battery lasts a long time.  I'm on my 3rd Leaf and only changed recently because I needed a bigger range due to a change in my life which means I now drive 220 miles round trip twice a week.

I owned my 2nd Leaf for 5 years and orginally intended to keep it for at least 10 years.  It had more than 110,000 miles on the clock and full battery health when I sold it.  I'm a high mileage driver (currently doing 3000 miles a month) and I've saved thousands by not having to put diesal or petrol into my car as well as not putting diesal particulates into the air.

BOWFER

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

No-one is being forced, but already ICE car sales are plummeting (down 50% YoY) and EV sales are exploding. 

These figures over the past year or so may not be reliable indicators as there is a significant supply constraint impacting total number of new vehicle registered.
No-one can say what the mix of ICE / EV sales would be with the supply constraints removed.

The component problems apply to all cars, so it's not people switching to EVs because they can't get an ICE.
EVs are hammering ICE sales.
The Tesla M3 was the best selling car (of any type) in Britain in September and I believe this applied to Europe as well.

BOWFER

With regard to battery replacement, I was reading an article last night about a 24Kwh Leaf owner who's done 200000 miles and his range was down from 90 to 50 miles.
So he replaced the battery pack to a new one supplied by a UK company at £6000 and his range is now 180 miles (making his 24KW Leaf effectively somewhere between the current 40KW and 62KW models).
Nothing wrong with the rest of the car, so that's him for another 200000 miles at least.
Effectively a new car for 3p per mile.
This excludes what he may get for the old battery pack, selling it to someone as home storage.

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

No-one is being forced, but already ICE car sales are plummeting (down 50% YoY) and EV sales are exploding. 

These figures over the past year or so may not be reliable indicators as there is a significant supply constraint impacting total number of new vehicle registered.
No-one can say what the mix of ICE / EV sales would be with the supply constraints removed.

I'm not sure any of those supply issues are going to be unfairly hindering ICE cars over electric. If anything I'd assume since chips are the main thing causing problems at the moment an EV is more likely to be delayed.

It's the ratio of sales that's more telling than the volume here. Of course, EV's are starting from quite a disadvantage there so the percentage figures will naturally look better.

The figures (https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/) show that more BEVs have been sold this year than diesel (9.5% vs 8.9%), though petrol sales still take half of the market.

But that still shows that 44% of new car sales have some battery power whether it's a hybrid or full electric.

Grumpy_chap

BOWFER said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

No-one is being forced, but already ICE car sales are plummeting (down 50% YoY) and EV sales are exploding. 

These figures over the past year or so may not be reliable indicators as there is a significant supply constraint impacting total number of new vehicle registered.
No-one can say what the mix of ICE / EV sales would be with the supply constraints removed.

The component problems apply to all cars, so it's not people switching to EVs because they can't get an ICE.
EVs are hammering ICE sales.
The Tesla M3 was the best selling car (of any type) in Britain in September and I believe this applied to Europe as well.

We simply do not have enough data to say that either way - the verification of true choice can only be established if the market is unconstrained.

The component supply issues may well favour EV over ICE - suppose you have one chip and two customers. 
Customer one will pay you £20k for an ICE hatchback.
Customer two will pay you £30k for an equivalent EV hatchback.
The manufacturer will favour the highest return on that chip.

The Tesla figures are irrelevant and happens regularly as it is to do with the ship movements more than anything else.

[Deleted User]

henry24 said:

What has happened to people being allowed a choice in what car they buy. I don't want an EV so in march I bought one of the last diesel mazda cx5 for £22000 instead of possibly 3 times that for electric. I can't believe in climate change until I see government stopping all flights. Its only 3 weeks since the country had to fire up a coal fired power station. I think when people realise how much they will have to pay for the climate they won't want to. Maybe it's time for someone to start a new political party to put another argument across like Nigel Fararge did 

What happened is people who refuse to believe in climate change feel entitled to pollute and pass the cost on to other people.

BOWFER

Grumpy_chap said:

BOWFER said:

Grumpy_chap said:

Herzlos said:

No-one is being forced, but already ICE car sales are plummeting (down 50% YoY) and EV sales are exploding. 

These figures over the past year or so may not be reliable indicators as there is a significant supply constraint impacting total number of new vehicle registered.
No-one can say what the mix of ICE / EV sales would be with the supply constraints removed.

The component problems apply to all cars, so it's not people switching to EVs because they can't get an ICE.
EVs are hammering ICE sales.
The Tesla M3 was the best selling car (of any type) in Britain in September and I believe this applied to Europe as well.

We simply do not have enough data to say that either way - the verification of true choice can only be established if the market is unconstrained.

The component supply issues may well favour EV over ICE - suppose you have one chip and two customers. 
Customer one will pay you £20k for an ICE hatchback.
Customer two will pay you £30k for an equivalent EV hatchback.
The manufacturer will favour the highest return on that chip.

The Tesla figures are irrelevant and happens regularly as it is to do with the ship movements more than anything else.

I really don't think it works like this, unless you know different of course?
You seem to suggest the suppliers of the rare parts go out to bid and the highest bidder on that day wins.
I really doubt this is the case, they will have contracts to fulfil and that's that.
Calling the Tesla figure irrelevant is just weird, it's literally the first time it's happened that an electric car has outsold anything else.

Grumpy_chap

BOWFER said:

Calling the Tesla figure irrelevant is just weird, it's literally the first time it's happened that an electric car has outsold anything else.

It has happened several times.  It is down to the logistics of how Tesla ship the cars.

BOWFER said:

I really don't think it works like this, unless you know different of course?
You seem to suggest the suppliers of the rare parts go out to bid and the highest bidder on that day wins.
I really doubt this is the case, they will have contracts to fulfil and that's that.

Of course it works like that.
Take a major multi-brand manufacturer sitting on orders for everything from £20k superminis to £250k supercars.
One chip, so you cannot fulfil all the orders.  Customers will be upset by the delay.
Do you keep happy the customer buying the £250k supercar, or the customer buying the £20k hatchback?
Business dictates that you grab the turnover.
Also, the £250k super-car customer might well be able to pursue you with legal action, whereas the £20k hatchback customer will simply shrug and wait.