How do ordinary people make the switch to electric vehicles ?

BOWFER

wongataa said:

Thesaltmustflow said:

I was lead to believe different and I'm sure there was a thread about 'coasting' on here a while back. My understanding is a modern ICE doesn't use any fuel when your on the brakes and off the accelerator, something to do with the fuel injection system.

Yes, when off the throttle ICE cars won't be using any fuel.  But the brakes are dissipating all that motion energy as heat into the environment.  When you move again you are using more of your fuel to get going and your range has decreased due to the extra fuel used.

With an EV when you brake that motion energy is used to charge the battery instead of being wasted as heat.  Therefore when you start of again your range has increased slightly as you didn't waste energy when braking, you are now re using it to make the vehicle move again.

As I mentioned earlier, BMW have been using regen braking to charge the 12V battery of their ICE cars since 2007.
The 3-series and Minis use it.
It allows the alternator to disengage from the engine and reduce drag, improving MPG (they call it IAC - 'intelligent alternator control')
So without having any desire to stick up for ICE cars, it's not the preserve of EVs really.

Herzlos

BOWFER said:

wongataa said:

Thesaltmustflow said:

I was lead to believe different and I'm sure there was a thread about 'coasting' on here a while back. My understanding is a modern ICE doesn't use any fuel when your on the brakes and off the accelerator, something to do with the fuel injection system.

Yes, when off the throttle ICE cars won't be using any fuel.  But the brakes are dissipating all that motion energy as heat into the environment.  When you move again you are using more of your fuel to get going and your range has decreased due to the extra fuel used.

With an EV when you brake that motion energy is used to charge the battery instead of being wasted as heat.  Therefore when you start of again your range has increased slightly as you didn't waste energy when braking, you are now re using it to make the vehicle move again.

As I mentioned earlier, BMW have been using regen braking to charge the 12V battery of their ICE cars since 2007.
The 3-series and Minis use it.
It allows the alternator to disengage from the engine and reduce drag, improving MPG (they call it IAC - 'intelligent alternator control')
So without having any desire to stick up for ICE cars, it's not the preserve of EVs really.

That presumably results in a pretty small energy saving through not having to run the alternator constantly, but there's presumably only so much charge (capacity and rate) you can add to the 12V starter battery.

It's essentially the same basis as KERS with a flywheel but I'm pretty sure that never left motor racing.

An EV with a huge battery can take much better advantage of it either way.

NBLondon

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

Might depend on where they are...   If they are parked up in a taxi rank at a major station and they can plug in for the ten minutes before the next InterCity arrives with 50 potential customers - that's a great solution.  If they've just taken a customer home to Zone 4 and there's nobody wanting to go from Zone 4 back to Central London do they cruise around hoping for a fare?  Head back in?  Head for somewhere they know there is a charger and a possibility of customers?  I'd expect that London cabbies would be able to add possible charging points to their mental map and factor it in to their planning.  

The only can charger I've actually seen is the single one outside East Finchley Tube station (zone 3) when my office was across the way.  Maybe once a week saw it with a cab plugged in.  

Now, if you are running an electric minicab firm and have chargers near the office then charging while waiting for the next fare becomes obvious.

[Deleted User]

NBLondon said:

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

Might depend on where they are...   If they are parked up in a taxi rank at a major station and they can plug in for the ten minutes before the next InterCity arrives with 50 potential customers - that's a great solution.  If they've just taken a customer home to Zone 4 and there's nobody wanting to go from Zone 4 back to Central London do they cruise around hoping for a fare?  Head back in?  Head for somewhere they know there is a charger and a possibility of customers?  I'd expect that London cabbies would be able to add possible charging points to their mental map and factor it in to their planning.  

The only can charger I've actually seen is the single one outside East Finchley Tube station (zone 3) when my office was across the way.  Maybe once a week saw it with a cab plugged in.  

Now, if you are running an electric minicab firm and have chargers near the office then charging while waiting for the next fare becomes obvious.

Lots of taxi firms use Nissan Leafs. The original 24kWh ones with 100 mile range.

Turns out taxis don't actually do all that much mileage every day anyway. Mostly just moving people around the city. Some got a rapid charger installed so they can top up at lunch time.

Same thing happened in China, taxis and busses were the first to go all electric in large numbers. It's ideal for them, they know the distances involved and need to take breaks for legal reasons anyway. Fuel cost is a major issue for them.

BOWFER

I was in London last week and noticed the street next to my hotel in Holborn had some cabs plugged in, with more waiting behind.
Right enough, according to zapmap there are two on 'Princeton Street'
Presume they help each other out and don't hog the chargers any more than they need to.

NBLondon

BOWFER said:

I was in London last week and noticed the street next to my hotel in Holborn had some cabs plugged in, with more waiting behind.
Right enough, according to zapmap there are two on 'Princeton Street'
Presume they help each other out and don't hog the chargers any more than they need to.

Not far from Great Ormond Street Hospital which may well be a common destination.

Agree - I'd expect them to top-up a bit and move on if others were waiting rather than wander off for a long break.

born_again

BOWFER said:

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

As one EV U-Tuber is fond of saying ABC Always Be Charging. Even if it's only a quick 5 min comfort break. He is well know for doing long trips in EV's

He said he spends about 3 x per day charging, maybe 20-30 minutes each time.
He's a total convert, even from the point of view that the car isn't a noisy, vibrating mess any more.
Just baffling as to who made the decision to only give 28KWH batteries, when the floorpan could easily accommodate a lot more.

Cost?

Bigger batteries = dearer car. 

Maybe they did some research into the cabbies daily usage and went for a battery pack that is big enough to cover a days usage with normal breaks used for charging.
Also balancing weight V battery usage. Bigger battery = more weight = higher consumption.

BOWFER

born_again said:

BOWFER said:

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

As one EV U-Tuber is fond of saying ABC Always Be Charging. Even if it's only a quick 5 min comfort break. He is well know for doing long trips in EV's

He said he spends about 3 x per day charging, maybe 20-30 minutes each time.
He's a total convert, even from the point of view that the car isn't a noisy, vibrating mess any more.
Just baffling as to who made the decision to only give 28KWH batteries, when the floorpan could easily accommodate a lot more.

Cost?

Bigger batteries = dearer car. 

Maybe they did some research into the cabbies daily usage and went for a battery pack that is big enough to cover a days usage with normal breaks used for charging.
Also balancing weight V battery usage. Bigger battery = more weight = higher consumption.

Why make them hybrids at all, was my question.
Seems to me the designers maybe panicked about range anxiety with taxi drivers and decided hybrid was the way to pacify that.
Then, in the process, they hamstrung themselves with no room for a decent battery pack.
OK, he was only one driver, but I guess they're much of a muchness. and he said a 62KWH pack would more than cater for his daily needs with no need to charge.
He's hopeful the next gen will have bigger packs.
I'm sure he said he was something like £240 a week for the lease.

[Deleted User]

BOWFER said:

born_again said:

BOWFER said:

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

As one EV U-Tuber is fond of saying ABC Always Be Charging. Even if it's only a quick 5 min comfort break. He is well know for doing long trips in EV's

He said he spends about 3 x per day charging, maybe 20-30 minutes each time.
He's a total convert, even from the point of view that the car isn't a noisy, vibrating mess any more.
Just baffling as to who made the decision to only give 28KWH batteries, when the floorpan could easily accommodate a lot more.

Cost?

Bigger batteries = dearer car. 

Maybe they did some research into the cabbies daily usage and went for a battery pack that is big enough to cover a days usage with normal breaks used for charging.
Also balancing weight V battery usage. Bigger battery = more weight = higher consumption.

Why make them hybrids at all, was my question.
Seems to me the designers maybe panicked about range anxiety with taxi drivers and decided hybrid was the way to pacify that.
Then, in the process, they hamstrung themselves with no room for a decent battery pack.
OK, he was only one driver, but I guess they're much of a muchness. and he said a 62KWH pack would more than cater for his daily needs with no need to charge.
He's hopeful the next gen will have bigger packs.
I'm sure he said he was something like £240 a week for the lease.

Hybrids are a terrible idea in general, if you can be pure battery electric there is so much less to go wrong and to maintain with the car.

Reason for the relatively small battery is cost. It's just not worth paying for a larger one when you need to take breaks anyway. You end up paying for something you barely use, and getting worse efficiency due to the extra weight the rest of the time.

It's the same for private car owners. A 500 mile battery sounds nice but in reality you will pay thousands more for it and pay to lug it around all the time, and end up saving minutes a year on those very rare 12 hour non-stop road trips.

I think people massively over-estimate distance. When I spoke to people about my EV they ask if I can get to the next city over, 23 miles away. They seem to think it's closer to 70 miles away. Without looking it up, how far do you think London to Manchester, or London to Edinburgh is?

DrEskimo

[Deleted User] said:

BOWFER said:

born_again said:

BOWFER said:

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

As one EV U-Tuber is fond of saying ABC Always Be Charging. Even if it's only a quick 5 min comfort break. He is well know for doing long trips in EV's

He said he spends about 3 x per day charging, maybe 20-30 minutes each time.
He's a total convert, even from the point of view that the car isn't a noisy, vibrating mess any more.
Just baffling as to who made the decision to only give 28KWH batteries, when the floorpan could easily accommodate a lot more.

Cost?

Bigger batteries = dearer car. 

Maybe they did some research into the cabbies daily usage and went for a battery pack that is big enough to cover a days usage with normal breaks used for charging.
Also balancing weight V battery usage. Bigger battery = more weight = higher consumption.

Why make them hybrids at all, was my question.
Seems to me the designers maybe panicked about range anxiety with taxi drivers and decided hybrid was the way to pacify that.
Then, in the process, they hamstrung themselves with no room for a decent battery pack.
OK, he was only one driver, but I guess they're much of a muchness. and he said a 62KWH pack would more than cater for his daily needs with no need to charge.
He's hopeful the next gen will have bigger packs.
I'm sure he said he was something like £240 a week for the lease.

Hybrids are a terrible idea in general, if you can be pure battery electric there is so much less to go wrong and to maintain with the car.

Reason for the relatively small battery is cost. It's just not worth paying for a larger one when you need to take breaks anyway. You end up paying for something you barely use, and getting worse efficiency due to the extra weight the rest of the time.

It's the same for private car owners. A 500 mile battery sounds nice but in reality you will pay thousands more for it and pay to lug it around all the time, and end up saving minutes a year on those very rare 12 hour non-stop road trips.

I think people massively over-estimate distance. When I spoke to people about my EV they ask if I can get to the next city over, 23 miles away. They seem to think it's closer to 70 miles away. Without looking it up, how far do you think London to Manchester, or London to Edinburgh is?

That's the 1 thing driving an EV over the last 3yrs has done for me. I suddenly know quite precisely how far away everything is....