How do ordinary people make the switch to electric vehicles ?

Grumpy_chap

Username03725 said:

The thing about cycling is that the more people there are that do it, the safer it becomes.
the cyclist you see out on the road becomes someone you know. 
It's the nice woman that you quite like who your wife chats to 

I think it is quite likely that my wife will ban me from cycling evermore if there is a risk that I'll get to know that nice woman.

Thesaltmustflow said:

My understanding is a modern ICE doesn't use any fuel when your on the brakes and off the accelerator

A modern ICE does not use fuel when you are off the accelerator.  Nor does an EV.
The difference is, an ICE wastes the energy dissipated through the brakes whereas an EV will recover some of that energy into battery charge.  (In this context, a hybrid operates more like an EV.)

BOWFER

Grumpy_chap said:

A modern ICE does not use fuel when you are off the accelerator.  Nor does an EV.
The difference is, an ICE wastes the energy dissipated through the brakes whereas an EV will recover some of that energy into battery charge.  (In this context, a hybrid operates more like an EV.)

To be fair, some ICE cars have been using the energy generated by the brakes for a while.
BMW have been using 'intelligent alternator control' since 2007, where the alternator is disconnected from the engine until it's needed and the brakes recharge the battery instead.
But it's all a bit hidden and immeasurable, whereas I can see regen working on my Leaf every day.
Not uncommon for me to arrive at work with more battery than when I Ieft the house, as I have a long downhill section.

Thesaltmustflow

Grumpy_chap said:

Username03725 said:

The thing about cycling is that the more people there are that do it, the safer it becomes.
the cyclist you see out on the road becomes someone you know. 
It's the nice woman that you quite like who your wife chats to 

I think it is quite likely that my wife will ban me from cycling evermore if there is a risk that I'll get to know that nice woman.

Thesaltmustflow said:

My understanding is a modern ICE doesn't use any fuel when your on the brakes and off the accelerator

A modern ICE does not use fuel when you are off the accelerator.  Nor does an EV.
The difference is, an ICE wastes the energy dissipated through the brakes whereas an EV will recover some of that energy into battery charge.  (In this context, a hybrid operates more like an EV.)

Ah well at least I was right about that part, like I said comparing ICE to EV is futile once one is passed the basic understanding of EV's and I 'think' I'm passed the basic understanding. I'm almost certain I'll own an EV in the future but not just yet.

born_again

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

As one EV U-Tuber is fond of saying ABC Always Be Charging. Even if it's only a quick 5 min comfort break. He is well know for doing long trips in EV's

BOWFER

born_again said:

NBLondon said:

BOWFER said:

Re-thinking usage is something I was chatting to a London cabbie about last week.
for some weird reason, their electric (PHEV) black cabs are only 28KWh batteries (!!!), which I found incredibly weird when they clearly have the space to fit much larger batteries.

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

But how long on a average shift do they spend parked up? 
So while they are waiting for a fare, they charge up..

As one EV U-Tuber is fond of saying ABC Always Be Charging. Even if it's only a quick 5 min comfort break. He is well know for doing long trips in EV's

He said he spends about 3 x per day charging, maybe 20-30 minutes each time.
He's a total convert, even from the point of view that the car isn't a noisy, vibrating mess any more.
Just baffling as to who made the decision to only give 28KWH batteries, when the floorpan could easily accommodate a lot more.

Nebulous2

BOWFER said:

Nebulous2 said:

I've posted recently about this, but I've dipped my toe in the water by leasing a leaf.  Just over £200 a month for three years, total cost under £9k.  Its a £30k car and I'd normally expect a new vehicle to lose 50% of retail in three years, or £15k. My lease is costing about two thirds of the likely depreciation cost. I've no idea how they do it, but I'm not complaining. That may not be affordable for some people, but is affordable for me. 

I have a van to carry bikes / tow a caravan and am semi-retired. The leaf is a second vehicle, as I've taken a part-time job 25 miles away, leaving my wife without a vehicle. 

This is a fast-moving environment. Renault are producing an electric van with a hydrogen fuel cell to increase range. By the time my three year lease is up I may well have given up on the full-time job, and that van might be capable of meeting all my needs. Being able to hand back the leaf and move on suits me very well if the technology has moved on. 

I think we are at a tipping point for EVs and are in the process of moving beyond early adopters. Up until the most recent fuel supply crisis EVs were available new. That has disappeared, with stock being hoovered up, and most of them now on factory orders. My car has gone up about £40 a month since I ordered it. 

I'm not a fan of hydrogen at all and didn't know Renault were going down this route.
For starters, there's only 11 hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK and I'm not sure there's much appetite to build more as it doesn't seem to have much/any future for your average Joe.
I was speaking to someone who's used and refulled a toyota Myrai several times and he described the process as a PITA.
There is (...or was) an argument for it for lorries and buses, but Scania have turned their back on it (announced early this year) and first bus Glasgow have just opened a huge electric bus charging station and ordered 150 electric buses for 2022.
I think it's dead in the water and I'd venture that in 3 years time the pure battery range of vans will improve to the point they won't need silly range-extending nonsense like this.

Here you go:-  Hydrogen-powered Renault Master Van to launch in 2022 | DrivingElectric

I wouldn't be so sure about hydrogen. If we have a big expansion in renewables then there will be times they produce too much electric. One way of dealing with that is to use it to produce green hydrogen. There is some big money behind that, see for example:- 

Ineos to spend more than €2bn on 'green hydrogen' projects | This is Money

DrEskimo

Nebulous2 said:

BOWFER said:

Nebulous2 said:

I've posted recently about this, but I've dipped my toe in the water by leasing a leaf.  Just over £200 a month for three years, total cost under £9k.  Its a £30k car and I'd normally expect a new vehicle to lose 50% of retail in three years, or £15k. My lease is costing about two thirds of the likely depreciation cost. I've no idea how they do it, but I'm not complaining. That may not be affordable for some people, but is affordable for me. 

I have a van to carry bikes / tow a caravan and am semi-retired. The leaf is a second vehicle, as I've taken a part-time job 25 miles away, leaving my wife without a vehicle. 

This is a fast-moving environment. Renault are producing an electric van with a hydrogen fuel cell to increase range. By the time my three year lease is up I may well have given up on the full-time job, and that van might be capable of meeting all my needs. Being able to hand back the leaf and move on suits me very well if the technology has moved on. 

I think we are at a tipping point for EVs and are in the process of moving beyond early adopters. Up until the most recent fuel supply crisis EVs were available new. That has disappeared, with stock being hoovered up, and most of them now on factory orders. My car has gone up about £40 a month since I ordered it. 

I'm not a fan of hydrogen at all and didn't know Renault were going down this route.
For starters, there's only 11 hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK and I'm not sure there's much appetite to build more as it doesn't seem to have much/any future for your average Joe.
I was speaking to someone who's used and refulled a toyota Myrai several times and he described the process as a PITA.
There is (...or was) an argument for it for lorries and buses, but Scania have turned their back on it (announced early this year) and first bus Glasgow have just opened a huge electric bus charging station and ordered 150 electric buses for 2022.
I think it's dead in the water and I'd venture that in 3 years time the pure battery range of vans will improve to the point they won't need silly range-extending nonsense like this.

Here you go:-  Hydrogen-powered Renault Master Van to launch in 2022 | DrivingElectric

I wouldn't be so sure about hydrogen. If we have a big expansion in renewables then there will be times they produce too much electric. One way of dealing with that is to use it to produce green hydrogen. There is some big money behind that, see for example:- 

Ineos to spend more than €2bn on 'green hydrogen' projects | This is Money

But converting electricity to hydrogen to then store in a car to power a motor is incredibly inefficient. Around 50% of the energy is lost converting it to a fuel, and then only about 22% of the energy is used to actually power the car:



We already worry about having enough energy to power BEVs, how is there going to be even more surplus renewables to create hydrogen? It will need many times more energy....

Ergates

NBLondon said:

That is odd - those charging breaks are non-earning time.  I would have expected them to want a battery that could run for a typical shift then charge overnight - or maybe a small top-up during a meal break.

I would imagine than any loss in income from the breaks would be more than compensated by the reduction in running costs - and from the sounds of it by the increase in quality of life (more breaks same income).

BOWFER

Hydrogen is expensive to make, expensive to buy, has to be transported from A to B by truck and has to be stored under pressure.
The vehicles themselves have complex air and cooling systems and need maintenance on the high pressure storage systems.
Any future in heavy haulage is debatable too, Scania announced in Feb this year that they see the future as BEV.
It annoys me that Aberdeen City Council keep pushing hydrogen, but I see that as them kissing the oil company backsides as it needs their refineries to be made.

Battery efficiency/density is improving all the time.
It's said the start point for electric airliners will be 400KWH per KG of battery weight.
Tesla are currently at around 260KWH per KG.
We're getting there, fast.

wongataa

Thesaltmustflow said:

I was lead to believe different and I'm sure there was a thread about 'coasting' on here a while back. My understanding is a modern ICE doesn't use any fuel when your on the brakes and off the accelerator, something to do with the fuel injection system.

Yes, when off the throttle ICE cars won't be using any fuel.  But the brakes are dissipating all that motion energy as heat into the environment.  When you move again you are using more of your fuel to get going and your range has decreased due to the extra fuel used.

With an EV when you brake that motion energy is used to charge the battery instead of being wasted as heat.  Therefore when you start of again your range has increased slightly as you didn't waste energy when braking, you are now re using it to make the vehicle move again.