DCB Legal & UKPC - Remnant PCN

IndigoMondayToyota

Good Evening all,

Unfortunately, no emails / correspondence today to suggest discontinuation of the case - however I recall @aphex007 going through the same in receiving a call, and a “Without Prejudice” email: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79274598/#Comment_79274598

Is it worth me responding to the DBCLegal email to the same effect  - at least then it’ll be in written form?

Could I also get some further feedback on my WS? I’m happy to drive back to the site in question tomorrow and get some recent pictures, but considering the alleged offence took place 6 years ago, it may not be relevant to my case…

Thanks in advance,
IMT

IndigoMondayToyota

Hi,

I have done another revision of my WS and Evidence Bundle:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5uidu97nc8x9bk4/WS - UKPC & DCBLegal v IMT v3.pdf?dl=0

I think Exhibit CC05 may need to be removed in favour of another SAR image that shows it in the distance blurred with the vehicle.

Please note I have until 28th September to submit this, so greatful for input and feedback.

Thanks,
IMT

Fruitcake

I would leave exhibit CC05 as it is because you can't read the £100 charge even though (some) of the sign is readable, even from about half a car length away. A motorist would have no chance to read the signs from a moving vehicle.

Not_A_Hope

Para 3 not owning the car any more is irrelevant.

Don’t know why you have bothered to include all the correspondence with the scammers. I would delete those paragraphs and exhibits.

Para 6 - If I was a judge I would be asking you as a former resident why you did not know the terms of parking for this residential area. Perhaps you should explain in your WS. Had they changed the rules? Why were you unaware?

Para 7 - what does ‘in time’ mean? How long were you parked? Did they ticket you whilst you were reading the sign you found?

Para 8 - I don’t think you mean ‘they’ in ‘they were highly aware’.

Para 9 and 10 would be better to be swapped around to explain why you didn’t enter a contract. They will argue if you saw the sign and read it you did enter a contract. 

Para 11 - what does a few minutes actually mean. Is there a grace period on the sign or can you refer to the BPA Code of Practice on grace periods. Did they not take more than one photo? Did they issue a PCN whilst you were trying to understand the sign you found.

Para 15 - you state there was no visible sign but say earlier in your WS you tried to read it and then show one in your exhibit 5. Perhaps you need to explain to the judge. Is there a large visible sign on entry to the residential area? 

IndigoMondayToyota

Thanks @Fruitcake - I will keep this per your comment.

Thanks @Not_A_Hope for your feedback.

Not_A_Hope said:

Para 3 not owning the car any more is irrelevant.

Don’t know why you have bothered to include all the correspondence with the scammers. I would delete those paragraphs and exhibits.

- I'll remove Para 3 if this is not relevant to my case. I included those correspondences as part of the sequence of events leading to the issuance of court case - so if anyone else can confirm I should remove these, then I'd be happy to.

Para 6 - If I was a judge I would be asking you as a former resident why you did not know the terms of parking for this residential area. Perhaps you should explain in your WS. Had they changed the rules? Why were you unaware?

- I wasn't aware as I was not a resident as such - I was living at my parents house who were listed as registered owners of the property.

Para 7 - what does ‘in time’ mean? How long were you parked? Did they ticket you whilst you were reading the sign you found?

-  '...in time.' meaning unable to obtain a parking permit to display inside the vehicle. The conditions of the signage states that a valid parking permit must be displayed at all times, but this is in reference to requesting one from the housing association, awaiting results, and then being issued one via post to then display on the vehicle - something I cannot obtain in this course of time.

Para 8 - I don’t think you mean ‘they’ in ‘they were highly aware’.

- This section was taken from @Daiapolon202's WS / Bundle which has since been removed. What do you suggest I amend this to? Or should this just be removed?

Para 9 and 10 would be better to be swapped around to explain why you didn’t enter a contract. They will argue if you saw the sign and read it you did enter a contract.

- Noted. I've swapped 9 and 10 around to better explain non-contract agreement.

Para 11 - what does a few minutes actually mean. Is there a grace period on the sign or can you refer to the BPA Code of Practice on grace periods. Did they not take more than one photo? Did they issue a PCN whilst you were trying to understand the sign you found.

- There was no grace period on the sign, but I can add an Exhibit to BPA Code of Practice, Section 13 on Grace Periods. They took several pictures of the vehicle (signages in the distance but blurry due to quality of photos), that one image of the signage, as well as DCBLegal also emailing me a copy of the signage within a PDF in image format. Again, no - I parked the vehicle, went inside the residence, and went back outside to find a PCN issued.

Para 15 - you state there was no visible sign but say earlier in your WS you tried to read it and then show one in your exhibit 5. Perhaps you need to explain to the judge. Is there a large visible sign on entry to the residential area? 

- There is no large visible sign on entry to the residential area. The signage from Exhibit 5 is not easily visible from where I parked my vehicle - please see comment from @fruitcake today at 3:44PM

I hope this answers your questions @Not_A_Hope and allows for a further review into my case.

Thank you,

IMT

Not_A_Hope

Further to your comments suggest you post an updated draft for comment.

For para 6 don’t make it sound as though you were a resident with knowledge o& the site if you weren’t. Make is easy for a judge to understand.

Para 7 - rewrite the para to explain why you were unable to obtain a permit. 

Para 8 - do you mean to write ‘I was highly aware’?

Para 11 - are the photos the PPC took timestamped? What does the BPA Code of Practice relevant version (when the PCN was issued) say about grace periods? And how long do you believe you were actually there before a NTD was put on your vehicle?

Para 15 - you need to make it clear for the judge which (large entry) signs were missing and where the PPC failed to meet their own COP. Whilst Exhibit 5 shows a typical rubbish sign on a wall the weakness of your case is that you have stated you found a sign perhaps after parking. You now need to convince a judge why it couldn’t be read. Was it dark, not light. Was the £100 charge hidden in a mass of tiny text. Did the text size meet the minimum standards set by the BPA COP or the new government COP?

Why did you park where you did. Was it unfamiliarity thinking you were parking on a normal street? Were you loading or unloading and needed to be near a particular property. There is case law supporting loading / unloading is not parking.

IndigoMondayToyota

Thanks again, @Not_A_Hope - much appreciated.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zotjl27ba30z1tl/WS - UKPC & DCBLegal v IMT v4.pdf?dl=0

I've removed Para 11 - 14 (correspondences from our friendly neighbourhood scammers).

Why did you park where you did. Was it unfamiliarity thinking you were parking on a normal street? Were you loading or unloading and needed to be near a particular property. There is case law supporting loading / unloading is not parking.

I was neither loading / unloading. I parked there as there was no other viable means of parking in the development - the 3 x Visitor bays were taken by genuine visitors, or by households with second vehicles (you don't need a permit to use these), and it's always a case of first come first served - I was unlucky and there were none left, so I parked where I did as all other bays are either allocated to other residences, or unavailable to use as you need a permit.

My vehicle at the time was the 2nd in the household, the main primary allocated spot being taken by my dad (which I bought the Registry Plan for at that time)

For para 6 don’t make it sound as though you were a resident with knowledge o& the site if you weren’t. Make is easy for a judge to understand.

OK - I amended to remove inferrence about being a resident. Basically - I parked there without the knowledge they would not only cite those parked in allocated bays that didn't have proper permits to do so, but everywhere in the area even where the roads were unmarked. By parking where I did, I presumed I was in the clear - obviously now I realise it wasn't the best idea which is why we are where we are...

Para 7 - rewrite the para to explain why you were unable to obtain a permit.

I've added not being able to obtain a permit because the Housing Assocation only allows one permit per household for an allocated bay - unfortunately there is no records we have to back this up as it was through a telephone conversation my parents had with the HA.

Para 8 - do you mean to write ‘I was highly aware’?

I see what you mean now - yes. I've amended this.

Para 11 - are the photos the PPC took timestamped? What does the BPA Code of Practice relevant version (when the PCN was issued) say about grace periods? And how long do you believe you were actually there before a NTD was put on your vehicle?

This Para has now been removed, but yes - all timestamped, and I would have to say around 15 minutes before the PCN was issued on the vehicle.

The section around Grace periods within BPA CoP (Version 6 - October 2015):

Grace periods

13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a
driver who enters your car park but decides not to park,
to leave the car park within a reasonable period without
having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.

13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’
in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the
driver is on your land without permission you should still
allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave
before you take enforcement action.

13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period
at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the
private car park after the parking contract has ended, before
you take enforcement action. If the location is one where
parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end
of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

Para 15 - you need to make it clear for the judge which (large entry) signs were missing and where the PPC failed to meet their own COP. Whilst Exhibit 5 shows a typical rubbish sign on a wall the weakness of your case is that you have stated you found a sign perhaps after parking. You now need to convince a judge why it couldn’t be read. Was it dark, not light. Was the £100 charge hidden in a mass of tiny text. Did the text size meet the minimum standards set by the BPA COP or the new government COP?

During the time of parking, the signs were not lit up as it was dark, and the signs were unclear as they displayed different charges - they had printed stickers over the charges - one was £90, another said £100 - I took photos of these for my previous case (containing the original EXIF data) - This is now Para 10, see Exhibits 06 and 07.

Thanks,

IMT

Coupon-mad

During the time of parking, the signs were not lit up as it was dark, and the signs were unclear as they displayed different charges - they had printed stickers over the charges - one was £90, another said £100 - I took photos of these for my previous case (containing the original EXIF data) - This is now Para 11, see Exhibits 06 and 07.

This is a really important set of points.

Not_A_Hope

v4 still states unnecessarily that you are no longer the registered keeper. 

I am still unclear if you were a resident at the time of the PCN and have since moved to a new address or whether you were a visitor. Either way your WS and perhaps defence misses the point that residents / visitors can have protection from these scammers by reference to what is actually in the residential lease. If it does not require a permit to be displayed and this takes primacy over whatever the PPC has put on their signs.

At the moment your WS still reads as though you were a visitor with no knowledge of the site, sought to find the Terms and Conditions but couldn’t read them. It might not stack up to a judge if you were a former resident. 

IndigoMondayToyota

Updated v4:

Thanks CM - I've amended Para 10 to be more true to that statement. Apologies, it was supposed to say dimly lit, not dark - and sorry for not including this information sooner.

Not_A_Hope - My apologies - I've removed that para and reattached as same version.

I was a resident living at my parents, and have since moved to a new address. As I was not on any documentation to say I was a resident, as it was only my parents name that was on the mortgage, lease, housing contracts, etc.

So seeing as it won't stack up to a judge as I was a former resident...what are my next steps?

Thanks,

IMT.